Anderton
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Matrix View and Songwriting
People seem to think the Matrix view is all about EDM...in one of my Advanced Workshop videos I tried to debunk that notion, but that was a long time ago.
Lately I've been experimenting with setting up basic "song structure" loops in the Matrix view and transferring them to track view not as a complete song, but as portions (e.g., I come up with a chorus I like, and transfer it to the linear tracks). Normally I'd wait until I perfected some sort of procedure and present it for the benefit of Sonar users, but I had a feeling that if I threw this idea out there, that 1) people who are already doing this might have some suggestions, and/or 2) you might think "hmm, that sounds interesting," give it a try, and come up with interesting new techniques.
So I guess this thread is both making a suggestion and asking a question - "ever use the Matrix view for songwriting?"
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worstcaseontario
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Re: Matrix View and Songwriting
2014/04/04 06:05:51
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"ever use the Matrix view for songwriting?"
No, because I have Ableton Live.
I would love it if the matrix view in Sonar allowed the editting of MIDI clips in the cells. This would allow me to sell Live and use Sonar exlusively, which is something that I would like very much.
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markyzno
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Re: Matrix View and Songwriting
2014/04/04 06:26:43
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I find it quite an alien way of songwriting, call me old fashioned if you will.  I have often thought about using it....Maybe I'll experiment.
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mettelus
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Re: Matrix View and Songwriting
2014/04/04 06:55:08
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☄ Helpfulby dubdisciple 2014/06/18 18:24:50
When X3 came out I revisited the Matrix View and took a step back to think about song construction. Many parts of a song repeat (specifically verses/choruses), so I took a very old song I wanted to redo and set a goal of learning the Matrix View as I went. A few neat tricks came out of doing this:
1) Since the matrix is column exclusive, this was incredibly handy in taking the track structure and dragging 4 bar loops down into the matrix. Columns for intro, verse, chorus, bridge, and outro made for easy editing of "piece parts."
2) I found the cells in the Matrix View made excellent "placeholders" for clips that were ideas that needed to be fleshed out (I now use this often). Rather than losing them "somewhere" in a track, they can be put into the Matrix View and dragged-and-dropped at will back into a track for editing. Multiple versions of the same clip can be done this way and easily tracked, since the matrix is two-dimensional and allows for better use of screen real estate.
3) Once columns are set for different portions of a song, composition is simpler since the project can be recorded by firing off columns, and the fact that different bar lengths can be used make things even better. This also makes "editing afterthoughts" simpler as I typically use 4 bar patterns for the matrix, and can drag/drop them into another track to modify.
4) A large portion of a song can be constructed this way, especially anything that "repeats," so the Matrix View can be a massive time saver if forethought goes into song construction.
The use of the matrix as a repository has gained a lot of weight with me just for that feature alone. Visually it is a nice thing to take advantage of, and I often have a "quick idea" I do not want to stop the flow of thought to develop, so will often create it in a track and then drag in into the matrix for when I have time later.
P.S. I have only done EDM just to "play with it," but the Matrix View can be used far beyond "just EDM." Almost every song has "repetition" in it. I think there is a misconception that the Matrix View is a "Live-knockoff" or some such, but it is actually a powerful tool.
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Stone House Studios
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Re: Matrix View and Songwriting
2014/04/04 07:18:17
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I think it would be easier for me to give this a shot if there were a kind of template building section of a tutorial - sort of a "How to build your underlying track to take advantage of the Matrix view, and understanding the flow", if you will.
If this already exists, please point me in the right direction!
Brian
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rebel007
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Re: Matrix View and Songwriting
2014/04/04 07:31:14
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Not more than a few weeks ago I had a song that was mostly synth part based, and I thought that I could put those small four to eight bar parts into the Matrix view and mix them up a bit to try and hear what order would sound good. Now that you have put this out there, I think I'll just go back and try that idea.
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stevec
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Re: Matrix View and Songwriting
2014/04/04 15:07:07
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I'm with Brian on this one: While I have used the Matrix View a few times in the past with delivered content (loops and one shots), it's getting my own MIDI or audio into the "right" state for Matrix use that holds me back from using it more. Whatever that "right" state might be.
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teego
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Re: Matrix View and Songwriting
2014/04/04 18:30:18
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I think the Matrix could be real handy for building a drum track,haven't really done that yet though.
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Anderton
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Re: Matrix View and Songwriting
2014/04/04 20:37:46
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stevec
I'm with Brian on this one: While I have used the Matrix View a few times in the past with delivered content (loops and one shots), it's getting my own MIDI or audio into the "right" state for Matrix use that holds me back from using it more. Whatever that "right" state might be.
For audio, you need to convert it into a groove clip. If it doesn't convert "nicely," then you may need to become intimate with the Loop Construction window and adjust its grooviness. I assume it's the same for MIDI and you need to create a MIDI groove clip...don't use MIDI much with the Matrix view, though, so I'm not sure.
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kennywtelejazz
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Re: Matrix View and Songwriting
2014/04/05 10:28:38
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I'm still learning my way around X3 coming from SONAR 6 so I have to confess that I haven't used the matrix view yet in X3 … The Matrix view is probably one of the features I loved and used the most in P 5 ….. I still use P5 all the time regarding interesting techniques I have found it very helpful to think Matrix view even if I'm not using it my way of doing that is I Like to think of SONAR as one big Matrix view ...by that I mean I often work in a non linear fashion in a project … I have things mapped out according to partial arrangements in my time line …. what that means is I may have different sections of the song that I am composing and experimenting with in my song project and if I was to play the song from start to finish in the time line there would be sections of silence and gaps …. now if you bear with me I'll tell you how I solve that problem ... when I have enough of those sections and I feel I'm ready to put the song together I will freeze all my tracks , I will then lasso and copy and paste all my frozen sections into an arrangement as if I was using the Matrix View.. once I find something (meaning an arrangment ) I am happy with I will open up a new project set the tempo and copy over the whole frozen arrangement over one track at a time ….. after saving the new project I will revert my original scratch pad project back to an unfrozen state I usually do a save as before I unfreeze it... Yeah , I know my workflow might sound a little crazy ….it works for me and I never place Genre of Music restrictions on myself it pretty much works out like the Matrix view for me … the only thing in the Matrix view that is faster is the ability to audition different cells from different colums as they play … in the end , it all adds up to making interesting music & thats truly what I care about Kenny
post edited by kennywtelejazz - 2014/04/05 10:42:40
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Anderton
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Re: Matrix View and Songwriting
2014/04/05 11:18:20
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kennywtelejazz
I often work in a non linear fashion in a project …
I have things mapped out according to partial arrangements in my time line ….
what that means is I may have different sections of the song that I am composing and experimenting with in my song project and if I was to play the song from start to finish in the time line there would be sections of silence and gaps ….
I often work that way myself.
when I have enough of those sections and I feel I'm ready to put the song together I will freeze all my tracks ,
I will then lasso and copy and paste all my frozen sections into an arrangement as if I was using the Matrix View..
Check out the group command. That lets you turn the clips into a "block" - sort of "arrangement by Lego."
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rsinger
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Re: Matrix View and Songwriting
2014/04/05 14:48:05
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worstcaseontario
"ever use the Matrix view for songwriting?"
No, because I have Ableton Live.
I would love it if the matrix view in Sonar allowed the editting of MIDI clips in the cells. This would allow me to sell Live and use Sonar exlusively, which is something that I would like very much.
+1 for Ableton Live. I have an EDP I use to use for looping and I liked using loopers to flesh out songs. I've tried matrix view, but it's pretty fussy. Audio clips have to be converted to groove clips, midi clips have to be adjusted to measures and so on. Ableton Live has a better workflow as a sketchpad. Having said that, once I'm ready to record I go back and record it in Sonar.
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gswitz
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Re: Matrix View and Songwriting
2014/04/06 08:29:44
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I'm ashamed to say that I have only used Matrix view once. It was after I broke my arm badly in a skateboarding accident and I couldn't play.
To tell the truth. I spend more time learning other tunes than writing my own.
StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen. I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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NG
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Re: Matrix View and Songwriting
2014/04/07 09:06:47
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Sometimes I use the Matrix as a good assistant to choose the right combination, but the limitation of just playing has made it less useful for me. I keep dragging and drooping, then editing, then do it again. it is a tiresome after some time.
I hope that Cakewalk pay attention to it and add the ability to record directly into it and also the ability to edit the cell (similar to Ableton Live). Some guys are using it in their live performance, so that should tell Cakewalk something.
I'm more of a Midi guy than Audio for composing, so I hope Sonar X4 will include improvements in Midi, Step Sequencer and the Matrix.
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Frink
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Re: Matrix View and Songwriting
2014/04/07 09:11:53
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gswitz
To tell the truth. I spend more time learning other tunes than writing my own.
...and, for me, that's one of the important elements to becoming a truly great songwriter.
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lawajava
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Re: Matrix View and Songwriting
2014/04/07 11:00:44
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I'm intrigued about using the Matrix view more. I haven't used it enough even though it's beckoning to be used.
I get how it works and how it can allow for all kinds of creativity.
Conceptually I'm wondering how it would work if you're trying to provide some dynamic builds or swells in a song. In other words, if you're trying to have a natural build to announce a chorus you can do that with natural playing and feeling, but when you're snapping stuff together with the Matrix it seems like the Matrix would not lend itself to that.
So, I was thinking if I were to try the Matrix view further and want to have some natural build areas in the song, I might snap things together in the Matrix first, then record those tracks as a performance. Then I'd go back into the regular track view and edit in sections where I would want to add some natural sounding builds.
Or add anything else that would go on top of the structure anyway, like vocals or leads etc.
Just some thoughts on the topic.
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sharke
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Re: Matrix View and Songwriting
2014/04/07 13:54:51
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As someone who dabbles in electronic music I would love to get to grips with the matrix. Unfortunately, te first couple of times I tried it, Sonar crashed so hard I had to do a power-off. Been afraid to try it again since! Maybe since I have a new rig with a fresh install I'll give it another go.
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kennywtelejazz
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Re: Matrix View and Songwriting
2014/04/07 15:08:27
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Anderton
kennywtelejazz
I often work in a non linear fashion in a project …
I have things mapped out according to partial arrangements in my time line ….
what that means is I may have different sections of the song that I am composing and experimenting with in my song project and if I was to play the song from start to finish in the time line there would be sections of silence and gaps ….
I often work that way myself.
when I have enough of those sections and I feel I'm ready to put the song together I will freeze all my tracks ,
I will then lasso and copy and paste all my frozen sections into an arrangement as if I was using the Matrix View..
Check out the group command. That lets you turn the clips into a "block" - sort of "arrangement by Lego."
thanks of the tip Craig , I will have to give that a try . Kenny
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b rock
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Re: Matrix View and Songwriting
2014/04/07 19:20:16
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Way back when this was the "Groove Matrix" in Project5, I experimented with using MIDI Learn, one-shots, and triggers to create Matrix "instruments". It's loosely along the lines of Foley effect triggering, but with individual instrument samples mapped across the entire MIDI keyboard. The P5 iteration was fairly buggy when you pushed it, so I abandoned the explorations. I haven't used the Matrix since in Sonar.
But - as one example - I would load up some of the individual Dimension Pro samples (conveniently labeled with the MIDI note number), and map with MIDI Learn to the appropriate (or inappropriate) keyboard note. Don't forget that MIDI CC and "positive" Pitch Bend are fair game for trigger control, too. Mix & match for guitar, piano, synth sounds, FX, etc., or stay conventional with one instrument's sample set.
There are some unusual, cool gated & overlapping sustained effects to be had with various trigger and loop settings. "Quantizing" to a particular scale or remapping the keys are real possibilities. Thanks for the discussion, Craig. I may just have to revisit this Matrixsynth.
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Anderton
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Re: Matrix View and Songwriting
2014/04/08 01:44:01
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lawajava
Conceptually I'm wondering how it would work if you're trying to provide some dynamic builds or swells in a song. In other words, if you're trying to have a natural build to announce a chorus you can do that with natural playing and feeling, but when you're snapping stuff together with the Matrix it seems like the Matrix would not lend itself to that. Indeed, it does not (of course with the "at least if it does, I haven't found it" caveat). So, I was thinking if I were to try the Matrix view further and want to have some natural build areas in the song, I might snap things together in the Matrix first, then record those tracks as a performance. Then I'd go back into the regular track view and edit in sections where I would want to add some natural sounding builds.
Or add anything else that would go on top of the structure anyway, like vocals or leads etc. You got it! The coolest thing about Matrix view is you can move between the linear track view and Matrix view easily. So, you can throw together (for example) a rhythm track by initiating loops at various times while what you're doing is being recorded in the linear tracks, then record overdubs on the linear tracks. This is why I like it for songwriting. The Matrix View is like the Metronome of the Gods. These days, I do a LOT of replacing parts. My priority is getting the song structure down as fast as possible, which often means using "placeholder" parts. Then when the song has an identity, I replace those parts with something better. The Matrix View helps in that respect.
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kennywtelejazz
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Re: Matrix View and Songwriting
2014/04/08 11:05:57
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+1 to everything Craig just mentioned ... with the Matrix View you can put together some pretty awesome grooves in any genre of music and put together musical ideas that will absolutely surprise you ... it lends itself very well to a very fast workflow as far as breaking out of what I like call the blank song page ... I've had it happen to me so many times , where I'm all set up to do something totally new from scratch and I'm chomping at the bit holding my guitar looking at a brand new open blank project while saying to myself what do I do now as a non singing instrumentalist , those are the times when the Matrix View really comes in handy ….  Kenny
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Marcus Curtis
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Re: Matrix View and Songwriting
2014/04/08 11:27:41
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To me the matrix view is ideal for creating bump music for broadcast. Typically I will construct a set of loops and one shots that will provide anywhere from 30 seconds to 2 minutes of of audio. This is great for creating music for video transitions and moving from different segments in any online broadcast.
I like this approach because it is quick and fast. I don't need to set up and record guitars or drums. I just use the loops and one shots I collected from cakewalk over the years. This is a fast and great way to provide audio for transitions in your videos.
Usually I will use enough loops and one shots to create about 7 or 8 different segments of bump music from one matrix project. I will have about 15 columns but I keep about 2 or 3 columns of loops per song. Then I set up two or three tracks at a time when I record the matrix loops.
I have also experimented with recording a song using the matrix. After the loops were constructed I would record about three or four columns. Then I would go back and record a few more columns on top of that.
My favorite thing about the matrix view is once you get it down it becomes very quick to assemble something on the fly.
As far as dynamic builds or swells in a song, If I can't find a loop that works I will usually overdub something later if I need too. The combination of using the Matrix view to record and also recording regular tracks works very well.
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michaelhanson
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Re: Matrix View and Songwriting
2014/04/08 14:18:52
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So, Craig, is this a possible SOS topic coming up in the future? Maybe a video?
I have to admit, that I have never really played around much with Matrix View; I maybe have opened it twice. I certainly never conscidered that it would be useful for actual song writing. In the back of my mind, I thought it was basically a beat making machine; something to plug drum beats or short grooves into, to make beats.
I will continue to watch this thread, I am learning a lot about Matrix View while following these discussions.
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dubdisciple
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Re: Matrix View and Songwriting
2014/04/08 15:17:57
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I think the Matrix view would benefit from a tighter intergration model that included better AI. I know "simple" additions are rarely that simple in the programming world but I find the Matrix requires too many time killing workarounds that negate thge useful features. For instance it would be awesome if one could simply map any sound to the matrix, regardless of whether it was a grooveclip and have it intelligently have it function as one. A practical example of that would be slicing up a sample and mapping to matrix view to be triggered.
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chuckebaby
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Re: Matrix View and Songwriting
2014/04/08 15:27:37
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Craig, would love to see a video of how you use the matrix. if even a short one.
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Dave Modisette
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Re: Matrix View and Songwriting
2014/04/08 15:51:13
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I haven't even bothered to install the Matrix View in the last 4 or 5 versions but I appreciate that CW gives me the option to leave something I'm not interested in off my computer.
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Marcus Curtis
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Re: Matrix View and Songwriting
2014/04/08 22:42:22
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chuckebaby
Craig, would love to see a video of how you use the matrix. if even a short one.
Craig did a video for the matrix in the advanced workshop videos he released way back for X1. that is what got me using the matrix view. those videos were great.
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Anderton
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Re: Matrix View and Songwriting
2014/04/08 22:45:55
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dubdisciple
For instance it would be awesome if one could simply map any sound to the matrix, regardless of whether it was a grooveclip and have it intelligently have it function as one.
You can try selecting the sound and hitting Ctrl+L to loop it before dragging it into the matrix. If you're lucky, it will loop well. If not...well, there's always the loop construction window.
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Anderton
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Re: Matrix View and Songwriting
2014/04/08 22:46:57
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Marcus Curtis
chuckebaby
Craig, would love to see a video of how you use the matrix. if even a short one.
Craig did a video for the matrix in the advanced workshop videos he released way back for X1. that is what got me using the matrix view. those videos were great.
I thought that video did a pretty good job of explaining the matrix view, but I also think it's time to write an SOS column that includes all the things I've learned about Matrix view in the past couple years.
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stevec
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Re: Matrix View and Songwriting
2014/04/09 18:20:34
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Anderton
Marcus Curtis
chuckebaby
Craig, would love to see a video of how you use the matrix. if even a short one.
Craig did a video for the matrix in the advanced workshop videos he released way back for X1. that is what got me using the matrix view. those videos were great.
I thought that video did a pretty good job of explaining the matrix view, but I also think it's time to write an SOS column that includes all the things I've learned about Matrix view in the past couple years.
Yes, it is time.
SteveC https://soundcloud.com/steve-cocchi http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=39163 SONAR Platinum x64, Intel Q9300 (2.5Ghz), Asus P5N-D, Win7 x64 SP1, 8GB RAM, 1TB internal + ESATA + USB Backup HDDs, ATI Radeon HD5450 1GB RAM + dual ViewSonic VA2431wm Monitors; Focusrite 18i6 (ASIO); Komplete 9, Melodyne Studio 4, Ozone 7 Advanced, Rapture Pro, GPO5, Valhalla Plate, MJUC comp, MDynamic EQ, lots of other freebie VST plugins, synths and Kontakt libraries
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