Philip
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Message
What comes out of my (or your) mouth? Does the whole song support what comes out of my mouth? ... And/Or vice versa? Does the 'what comes out of your/my mouth' support the whole song. Please comment, negate, validate, etc. I hypothesize as an artist 1) That the lyrical-pictorial message makes or breaks a song more than anything; perhaps 95% of cases. (By lyrical-pictorial, I mean words or musical phrases that infer words) 2) Obtaining a lyrical message is scary business because of #1 and other emotional-spiritual reasons. 3) A message may be short lived or eternal! 4) A message need not be the Queen's English ... but it might 'hit' the listener's heart. 5) A message need not be always on key ... though many listeners are offended by 'sloppy' singing. (I may edit this 'tired' post later ... and I'll doubtless clarify thoughts with you as yours gush out. Again, I think I'd prefer your thoughts over mine ... most of you are seriously focused on your sweet craft) Please share your thoughts, validations, techniques, etc. on unleashing your message-hooks (noobs and advanced songsters ... please share ... your thoughts!) 
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mattplaysguitar
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I think the a large portion of listeners don't care if there is any message at all, as long as it sounds good and is catchy to them. A good message in the song is often just a bonus. There are certainly a hell of a lot of people who do care about the message and it can make or break a song, but for a good deal of listeners they just want it to sound good and never even listen to what it's trying to say. It would be interesting to do a survey on this with a large, unbiased sample of the population. Tricky to do though...
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Guitarhacker
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Does music need a message at all is probably the better question to ask.
And the short answer to that is no....the longer answer is maybe, depending on other factors.
Much of modern music has no message at all..... just words that rhyme and fit the groove. Pop music I think probably can be a hit without a specific message. Even music that has no message, has a message, and music that has no redeeming social value often has a message that is better left unsaid at times.
Pop as well as most other genres all the way to rap and bluegrass do not necessarilly need to have a message, although many do... even if it's an unintentional message...or a socailly unaceptable one like it's cool to use drugs, hit women, kill people and hate others....these kinds of messages are in some songs. To me, they are not acceptable messages, to others, they are gospel and teach these messages to their children through song.
It is not necessary to have a message in a song but it is very important to have a story in the song. In fact most songs are short movies in the imagery they convey..Just think about the story lines here>>>> Elenore Rigby (Beatles) , Moving Out (Billy Joel) , Night Moves (Bob Segar) , Wanted (Alan Jackson) , Rocky Top (Osborne Brothers) ....all songs from differing genre's but listen to the song and you can visualize the story in your mind. Some of these songs have messages, as a matter of fact it could be argued that they all do in some form or another.
The story draws you in. If the story has a message that's even better.
Of course.... as usual, this brief attempt to reply only scratches the surface.
My website & music: www.herbhartley.com MC4/5/6/X1e.c, on a Custom DAW Focusrite Firewire Saffire Interface BMI/NSAI "Just as the blade chooses the warrior, so too, the song chooses the writer "
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skullsession
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I once heard Ray Davies of the Kinks talk about how they were being pushed by thier record company in 1964 to write ONE MORE single....ONE MORE hit, just as they thought they were done writing for the time.
So...they sat down and took a look at all the great hits of the past. They found things in common....the words "YOU" and "ME".
This is how "You Really Got Me" was born.
HOOK: Skullsessions.com / Darwins God Album "Without a doubt I would have far greater listening and aural skills than most of the forum members here. Not all but many I am sure....I have done more listening than most people." - Jeff Evans on how awesome Jeff Evans is.
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Daylaa
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Philip - i find your posts extremely challenging reads - all of them!  Packed full of intelligence and deep thought. They are like mini moments of over-load when i imagine your mind just over-spills with thoughts and questions. My response would be that I feel, like Matt said, that a message in a song is a bonus - but not all songs have one. Some songs are just an expression of a moment - or an illustration of a lifestyle.
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ohhey
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Philip
What comes out of my (or your) mouth? Does the whole song support what comes out of my mouth?
... And/Or vice versa? Does the 'what comes out of your/my mouth' support the whole song.
Please comment, negate, validate, etc.
I hypothesize as an artist
1) That the lyrical-pictorial message makes or breaks a song more than anything; perhaps 95% of cases. (By lyrical-pictorial, I mean words or musical phrases that infer words)
2) Obtaining a lyrical message is scary business because of #1 and other emotional-spiritual reasons.
3) A message may be short lived or eternal!
4) A message need not be the Queen's English ... but it might 'hit' the listener's heart.
5) A message need not be always on key ... though many listeners are offended by 'sloppy' singing.
(I may edit this 'tired' post later ... and I'll doubtless clarify thoughts with you as yours gush out. Again, I think I'd prefer your thoughts over mine ... most of you are seriously focused on your sweet craft)
Please share your thoughts, validations, techniques, etc. on unleashing your message-hooks (noobs and advanced songsters ... please share ... your thoughts!)
I don't think it matters. Most folks listen to music for entertainment and expect it to be fun. If it cool music they like it and a clever hook (repeated many times) is good too. Listening to music is not what it used to be. Most homes don't really have a stereo system anymore, the TV has replaced that for good. So music is more for background then a singular activity. The only time I get to listen to music is in the car or with headphones. Even with just one other person in the house cranking up the stereo is not an option.
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Beagle
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I think there are markets for both and I personally have bought music on both "message" and 'non-message" based music.
when I was a teenager some of the lyrics were VERY important to me and some of the lyrics "spoke" to me and the things that I was going thru at the time. same is true today. some of the music I listen to today have very powerful lyrics that really have a deep meaning for my life and I identify with the music because of the lyrics, not in spite of them.
but there are also songs that have meaningless lyrics that I listen to and love.
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AT
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Good topic, Phillip. For me, emotion is the message, to mangle McLuhan. If you are going to write a political screed, a philosophical point or a math forumla, use the proper form. A "message" song usually falls flat, like Woody Allen mocking messages in "What's up, Pussycat" with a scroll of "Artist message" during a monologue.
Most songs succeed by tying the emotion of the music to similiar lyrics. I mean, you can hear just a few licks of Lucille and know BB's going to be singing about broken love. They form a whole, just like most good songs. And even the exceptions (see [or hear, really] "everyone wants to know why I sing the blues"), which is a message song but a series of concrete images/actions that viserally define racism, rather than speechifying about why racism is bad. Compression and visualisation work w/ music.
Which is one reason that a simple idea well done is the mainstay of music/lyrics. Take the Kink's song above. The frantic guitar and the only lyrics most people remember (the title) both capture an emotional essence. and once you start self-consciously doing a high-concept message you set yourself up for parody, not to mention it is really hard to do. Everytime I hear "Stairway to Heaven" (which I love, btw and will listen to if I catch it on the radio) I can't help but think of an Indian comic doing a parody called "I'm buying a 7-11." And the most famous (to my generation, anyway) is Lynyrd Skynyrd's response to "Southern Man" in "Sweet Home Alabama." I can't imagine even the biggest Neal Young fan not getting a smile when hearing " A southern man don't need him around, anyway." Kicks the pomposity in the you know what, and continues the teasing w/ "Watergate doesn't bother me, does your conscience bother you ... tell me true." A message, just light-hearted enough to be absurd and true, which is in the spirit of rock n roll.
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http://www.bnoir-film.com/ there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. 24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.
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guitardog247
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Great Topic Phillip! I always look at lyrics as "literal" or "non-literal". Literal meaning you can take what they are saying literally, and it all makes perfect sense. Be it a story, or message, or reaction....... Then some lyrics people say are just a bunch of lines that sound cool or ryhme. That's true, and they can't be interpreted "literally". But that choice of wording still, because it "sounds cool" does invoke an emotion. It may not mean anything literally, but, still scream angst or rebellion to a teenager. Or it can be like poetry, where, it can be interpreted by many ways by different people. Like a song about addiction, can be about anything, a person, drug, etc.. Or a song about control can be about a person, government, etc. Can be worded vaguely enough to be mysterious, and the listener can let their own imagination run with it.
post edited by guitardog247 - 2010/10/12 14:07:16
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mattplaysguitar
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See if you can work out what the message is in these lyrics by Kelly Rowland (worst female singer on the planet): http://www.metrolyrics.co...ics-kelly-rowland.html I really don't understand how these songs can be played on daytime commercial radio... A little snippet if you don't wanna read them all: "So you gotta put it in when we get it on"
"You gotta get it all the way in"
"Use those things for sure I'll reach my destination"
I love this section too, it's just fantastic: "I aint acceptin no exuses baby
Don't brag about it if you're useless baby
You better blow me away
Make a girl wanna stay
At your spot for another round
It's your chance to prove
Don't forget your move
There's nothing to lose
But me"
I love the 'but me' bit at the end. Hilarious!!
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The Maillard Reaction
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I play instrumentals for a reason.
It seems to me that usually messages are just more of the same old thought noise I am trying to shield myself from... why should I add to the noise?
There is joy to be had while listening to music... that's my message.
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Searchfinger
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Speaking of lyrics, what does the line "Point of know return " means?  . I love Kansas but I just don't get that line. But then English is not my first language.
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skullsession
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Kansas made up for that one with Dust In The Wind....which, by the way.....rumor has it was sung into an SM57.
So....there's one for the "song and performance trump everything" crowd.
HOOK: Skullsessions.com / Darwins God Album "Without a doubt I would have far greater listening and aural skills than most of the forum members here. Not all but many I am sure....I have done more listening than most people." - Jeff Evans on how awesome Jeff Evans is.
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Soundtrapper
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Philip sometimes, most of the time, I can be caught
humming and making weird noises when I'm playing
my guitar on an instrumental.
I don't know exactly how much it helps the song but
it doesn't bother me.
Seriously, most all the time I hear the notes of the vocalist, not the lyrics.
Lyrics are something I'll learn trying to sing along with
a tune I like or the radio station has brainwashed me with.
For what that's worth.
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UbiquitousBubba
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While I can enjoy and appreciate non-message songs, I really enjoy a well written lyric that says something important in a natural, non-pretentious manner. Well crafted lyrics can give a song emotional and psychological weight. The best lyrics are often simple and scorchingly honest. When these lyrics are tied to music that matches the flow, the feel, and the passion, then you've got something magical that won't be easily forgotten.
It's hard to pin down, but when you hear it, you know you've got it. Regardless what the message is, that moment is powerful.
That's my opinion, anyway. Your mileage may vary...
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guitardog247
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I agree Bubba. Lot's of power in simplicity. Lyrically, and instrumentally.
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Philip
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Of course you guys are awesome, elusive, thoughtful, and completely different in your viewpoints. Thank you for risking your reputations on this thread.
Message, I'd agree, is obsolete on TV and radio. That is, if message is morality, which some of you invoked.
Others (of you), IIRC, have completely taken lyrics out of music ... as if music itself has signification that is on par with 'edifying' songs.
Doubtless, right words are forcible to my soul with whatever pomp matches those words (as U_Bubba seems to me to have invoked)
Thanks Hook, for noting the 'You-Me' lyrical catch (another of your many pearls)
I suppose there is distinctive ambiant beauty to songs, but IMHO, backround music fits for 'most folk' whose brains are damaged by TV. JMO! They are not my target audience and I hope that they are not yours.
If my target is my wifey -- I'll allure her with forcible words.
If my target is dancers -- I'll strike them with words
... church folk -- ""
... kids -- ""
... bars ..""
In sum: reprobate TV-intoxicated souls ... are not my cup of tea.
As artists, I understand that many (if not all) of us are intoxicated in something or other ... so I may be overly biased about message ruling the song(s). The rabbit trailing seems endless.
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The Maillard Reaction
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Hi Phllip,
I just want to be clear. I am one of those guys that think that music doesn't need lyrics to communicate the beauty and harmony we can observe in the universe.
I enjoy lyrics as well. I very much enjoy clever pop songs. I enjoy well crafted country lyrics. I really dig my Public Enemy CDs.
But, I consider all of that poetry... it's great to reinforce poetry with music... but to me it is poetry... and poetry is words... and words is your ideas... which I may or may not want to enter my consciousness... and once someone starts blabbering it's impossible to ignore it... even if you get skilled at "not paying attention" it is still entering your consciousness and programming your mind.
I very much enjoy the idea that music without words is just a communicative as poetry... without all the distracting, potentially destructive words.
all the best,
mike
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UbiquitousBubba
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I agree that instrumental music is as communicative as poetry. Someone I once heard said that "Pop music combines two pure art forms, poetry and music, and compromises them both. The resulting hybrid is less than the sum of its parts."
Great music produces an emotional and/or psychological reaction within the listener. While some "meaning" may be attached due to cultural or social associations, the beauty, passion, energy and mood of the music speaks its own language.
I'd far rather listen to great instrumental music than songs with a blunt, poorly written, "preachy" message.
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skullsession
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SURE! Oh...wait....I thought you said massage.
Me? I'm currently working on my next masterpiece, aimed at zapping all the humility, care for life, gumption, love of fellow-man/general goodness from all of your children.
It's what I do best....and even though it won't be "remembered" for long, I'm hoping the psychological effects will be eternal.
Remember....
"We don't need no education!"
HOOK: Skullsessions.com / Darwins God Album "Without a doubt I would have far greater listening and aural skills than most of the forum members here. Not all but many I am sure....I have done more listening than most people." - Jeff Evans on how awesome Jeff Evans is.
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savageopera
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Lyrics speak to the mind, music speaks to the heart..................ah shucks.
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Philip
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skullsession
Me? I'm currently working on ... zapping all the humility, care for life, gumption, love of fellow-man/general goodness from all of your children.
It's what I do best....and even though it won't be "remembered" for long, I'm hoping the psychological effects will be eternal.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hook: You've got my devout attention and are freaking me out! Why are you threatening to shame, abuse, and/or molest my children, publicly? Stop it!
... Also, I'm prepared to defend my family.
And/or, if I've hurt you in any way, I'm sorry; please explain!
Sorry, Bubba, SavageOpera, Mike, and others ... I'll try to reply later.
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Bonzos Ghost
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I don't think that a message within the lyrics is all that important or even required. Some people don't even notice lyrics - other than the obvious hook lines. Lyrics don't even need to make a lot of sense to work. I mean, what was half that stuff Jon Anderson sang about for the last 30 years? Doesn't matter, it all fit in with the grand scheme of Yes more often than not. Lots of imagery. That said, there's nothing worse than bad lyrics. They have the potential to ruin an otherwise good song. "Good" doesn't mean it has to be anything deep and profound. I enjoy good lyrics, lyrics with a message, lyrics with no message, lyrics with nothing but fluff and some crafty hooks, and a lot of music with no lyrics at all. As long as it's all good and everything fits/supports everything else. All those parts = a song. A good song has strong performances from everyone, and if there's vocals - good lyrics too.
post edited by Bonzos Ghost - 2010/10/15 02:53:38
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Philip
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Bonzos Ghost, Bubba, SavageOpera, Mike: Great thoughts, IMHO.
Doubtless, a lot has to do with so many factors, genres, moods, tolerances, target audiences, etc. ... yet there is a fading away of most songs over time.
Many song-writers are deep emotive thinkers ... else they have thought out the guitar with great care (which, to me, a physician, takes a lot of thought).
IOWs, IMHO, by brainstorming and heartstorming, 'contmeporary' songs are born and ... alas ... like their singers ... die out over a few seasons or so.
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