Helpful ReplyMeter/Key View: No Minor Keys?

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michael diemer
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2018/10/07 21:41:08 (permalink)

Meter/Key View: No Minor Keys?

Maybe this has been requested before (I would be surprised if it hasn't): Why are there only major key options listed in Meter/Key View? Music has both major and minor keys. Furthermore, there is a "relative minor" key for every major key. For example, C major has A minor as its relative minor. All the other major keys have a relative minor key associated with them, with the same key signature. Sure, I can consult the chart I made to find the correct major key associated with a minor key, and choose that key signature, but a professional DAW with so many great features should have this by default. 
 
It's an easy addition. All you have to do is something like this:
 
1 #: G Major/E Minor. 
2#:  D Major/B Minor
And so on.
 
Thanks, Mike 
 
Ooops, sorry, I intended to post this in feature requests, not sure what happened. Please feel free to move it.
 
 Edit: I just reposted this in Feature Requests, this post can be deleted. Thanks.
post edited by michael diemer - 2018/10/08 16:46:25

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Bash von Gitfiddle
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🌀 2018/10/08 19:53:05 (permalink)
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post edited by Bash von Gitfiddle - 2018/10/10 03:33:44


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Re: Meter/Key View: No Minor Keys? 2018/10/08 21:16:52 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby rogeriodec 2018/10/08 21:27:56
I have to agree.
 
Any experienced composer should be able to just look at the score and determine from the sharps & flats in conjunction with the key signature to instinctively know if you're in, for example,  C Major or A Minor.

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Re: Meter/Key View: No Minor Keys? 2018/10/08 21:25:10 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Resonant Serpent 2018/10/08 22:18:24
Bristol_Jonesey
I have to agree.
 
Any experienced composer should be able to just look at the score and determine from the sharps & flats in conjunction with the key signature to instinctively know if you're in, for example,  C Major or A Minor.


Whilst this is true, it's not an unreasonable request.
 
Changing Eb (3 flats)  to Eb / Cm (3 flats) isn't a big ask.

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Re: Meter/Key View: No Minor Keys? 2018/10/09 03:29:49 (permalink)
Bristol_Jonesey
I have to agree.
 
Any experienced composer should be able to just look at the score and determine from the sharps & flats in conjunction with the key signature to instinctively know if you're in, for example,  C Major or A Minor.


It's not that I don't know what the key sig is. Of course I do, I'm writing the piece. It's that I want to easily make the correct changes in key sig at the appropriate time. I think you misunderstood my point. 

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Re: Meter/Key View: No Minor Keys? 2018/10/09 03:39:32 (permalink)
Bash von Gitfiddle
The "relative" minor key you refer to is also know as the Aeolian mode which is one of the modes of the Ionian Scale.
 
There are 5 other "relative modes", all of which have powerful uses but share a key signature. 
 
So, where will your list stop? Will each of the twelve Ionian Scale listings be accompanied by all seven well known modes for a total of 84 choices as related to the 12 actual key signatures?
 
How about the rest of the *non-western* world and the other hundred or so scales out there being used by musicians? Some of the so called "exotic" scales do, and some do not, have key signatures.
 
Furthermore, the snap to scale tools in Piano Roll View can be handy without regard for the signature if the list of scales is comprehensive enough to recognize the variety of subdivisions that exist.
 
 


Interesting response. No, it doesn't make sense to expect that all the modes be represented, let alone non-Western scales and such. But being able to quickly insert the correct major and minor key sigs would seem to be the bare minimum, and would account for the vast majority of situations.
 
Of course none of this matters to those who don't need key sigs. But for those are doing orchestral stuff, it makes it easier to export the piece to notation software, because the key sigs will be correct when imported. And, as was pointed out above, it should be very easy to do as it just involves adding some text.
 
I wish I just knew all the key sigs by heart, but I'm self-taught, and never bothered to memorize them. Actually, I can derive them on demand using the circle of fifths, but why do that when you can just look at a chart? And why do that, when your software has the info already there for you?

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Bash von Gitfiddle
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🌀 2018/10/09 12:22:37 (permalink)
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post edited by Bash von Gitfiddle - 2018/10/10 03:33:55


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Re: Meter/Key View: No Minor Keys? 2018/10/09 13:32:49 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby michael diemer 2018/10/09 19:54:07
Bash von Gitfiddle
"...it doesn't make sense to expect that all the modes be represented."  This is an interesting statement.
 
C Ionian (a.k.a. major), D Dorian, E Phrygian, F Lydian, G Mixolydian, A Aeolian (a.k.a. natural or relative minor) and B Locrian all are designated with the very same key signature.
 
There are of course, 11 other similar lists ( Maybe more if you decide to label all the enharmonic equivalents )
 
These modes have been used by numerous classical "composers"; Debussy, List, Beethoven, Chopin, Sibelius, and Korsakov to name a few.
 
These modes can be heard throughout the history of "western" classical music, and feature prominently in many of the cornerstones of the foundation that "western" classical music has been built upon.
 
Yet, it has been suggested that since it seems inconvenient to know about, but not commit to memory, the relationship between the Ionian and Aeolian modes, a special handy aide should be introduced to promote time savings while preparing a score that features these two particular modes. What happens to all the other modes? Will they be deprecated for use by the few who are willing to refer to a chart, or the circle of fifths, or perhaps even their memory.
 
 




The menu item is Meter/Key, not Meter/Mode or Meter/Scale
 
The fact that it specifies the number of sharps or flats in the description, makes it just as suitable for modes.
 
Keys refer to major/minor.
Modes refer to Ionian, Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, Mixolydian, Aeolian, and Locrian.
 
Keys and Modes are two different things, just like chords and scales are two different things.
 

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Re: Meter/Key View: No Minor Keys? 2018/10/09 20:16:55 (permalink)
Part of the reason I requested this is that it could be helpful for folks who don't have any knowledge at all about the subject. I can always look it up or even figure it out in my head, so for me it's just a convenience. but for a lot of folks it would be even more helpful. 
 
The key a song is in is pretty easy to figure. It's almost always the starting chord and ending chord, and the one it keeps coming back to. It's neat to know that if your song is in the key of E, it has a relative minor of c#. If you are writing a song in E minor, the key sig would be the one for G major (one sharp). So you just go to the menu and choose G, and you have the correct key for your song.
 
In a long classical piece, the key may change many times, and there it's even more helpful to have at a glance the correct key sigs listed.
 
One way to figure it out: the relavtive minor of a key will always be a 3rd before it. So, for the key of C, the relative minor is A minor (A-B-C: A is two diatonic steps before C). For F major, it's D minor (D-E-F), and so on. It gets tricky though in some cases though, which is why adding this feature would be helpful.
 
Here is a list of all the major/minor key relationships: (Major keys are in large caps; minor keys in small caps)
 
Sharp Keys:  G/e (1#) - D/b (2#) - A-/f# (3#) - E/c# (4#) - B/g# (5#) - F#/d# (6#)
 
Flat keys:      F/d (1b) - Bb/g (2b) - Eb/c (3b) - Ab/f (4b) - Db/bb (5b) - Gb/eb 6b)
 
As you can see, it isn't easy to keep all that straight, unless you've gone to music school and had it pounded into your head. Or you just are really good at memorizing.
 
The above list is all that is needed to add the minor keys to the menu list. Should be easy, I would think.

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Re: Meter/Key View: No Minor Keys? 2018/10/09 20:33:39 (permalink)
Fortunately 4 me there's much bigger fish to fry in the world.
 
Anyone for giant goldfish fillet?

 
post edited by soens - 2018/10/09 20:56:54
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Re: Meter/Key View: No Minor Keys? 2018/10/09 22:04:54 (permalink)
MIDI key signature is metadata, so it does not control MIDI hardware or MIDI compatible instruments per se. It does convey information about key signatures to some DAW or sequencer or notation software that may be used to show the note names or staff locations. Key signature data might allow software that is aware of it to actually transpose the note pitch values to raise or lower the notes while keeping the same intervals, by simply specifying a new key, or to more easily determine the spelling and naming of chords. The key signature message includes the ability to show 0 sharps or flats, or 1 to seven sharps or flats, which would certainly cover the available options on a 12 semitone scale. It also includes the ability to specify if the key is minor or major, even though as has been noted that will not change how the note pitches will sound in an equal tempered pitch collection, which is what MIDI note numbers specify. It does change how the notes are spelled when enharmonic pitches are available, but that spelling is enforced by not permitting a mixture of sharps and flats in the same signature. I do not have access to SONAR/CBB right now to see if it will export key signature events appended to standard MIDI files, but if it does, one does wonder how it determines that the key is minor vs major if it only accepts major as an input. It is also my impression that changing the key signature in SONAR/CBB does not transpose what is written to the new key, which would involve recalculation of all of the note numbers. It might be better to look at the SONAR/CBB key signature option as a shorthand way to avoid having to modify a bunch of individual note numbers whenever changing a key, or even having to specify all of the sharps or flats to be intended to clean up the notation view. If it is just a sharp or flat insertion robot, then the Major = Relative Minor kludge should be sufficient, although as noted, may not be obvious to every user. On the other hand, it would seem to be a relatively trivial piece of programming to teach the robot to understand/display the natural minor key. 
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Re: Meter/Key View: No Minor Keys? 2018/10/09 22:19:40 (permalink)
soens
Fortunately 4 me there's much bigger fish to fry in the world.
 
Anyone for giant goldfish fillet?

 


Careful you don't get heavy metal poisoning, Dude!

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Re: Meter/Key View: No Minor Keys? 2018/10/09 22:39:27 (permalink)
No worries. I'm not into heavy metal.
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Re: Meter/Key View: No Minor Keys? 2018/10/09 22:52:22 (permalink)
slartabartfast
....On the other hand, it would seem to be a relatively trivial piece of programming to teach the robot to understand/display the natural minor key. 



I'd like to see that algorithm. I think it's far from trivial.
 
 

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Re: Meter/Key View: No Minor Keys? 2018/10/10 00:08:45 (permalink)
CbB does export key sigs successfully to the Notion notation program. That's the only one I've tried. I have to do some cleanup of course, because Cakewalk has always done some weird things with #s and bs. there is no absolute rule that composers consistently follow in "spelling" notes, or even in how they choose key sigs. Music theorists might shudder at how I do it. Sometimes my "rule" is what looks best. It gets really weird with transposing instruments. 
 
As for major/minor keys, it doesn't really matter if the software "understands" the differnce between a major and minor chord. People do however, so if the feeling is minor, it's in the relative minor. If the feeling is major, it's in the major. Same key sig for both. Of course, the flatted 3rd is what defines it technically, but the feeling will let all but the tone deaf know immediately if it's major ot minor.
 
Sometimes it's really hard to figure out what key a portion of music is in, if for example the primary harmony consistenly has flatted or augmented 5ths. I ran into that last night. To Bash's point, this would be a perfect example of a scale-type "key" for which there is no actual key sig. I finally settled on one by feel. One particular note just sounded like it was the tonic. But really, it was not in any key. Maybe I should have just left it in C. If I did that consistently, I would at least be following a rule. But there would be a ton of #s and bs.

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Re: Meter/Key View: No Minor Keys? 2018/10/10 01:08:10 (permalink)
To be honest - I would highly recommend to learn the fundamentals of Music Theory. It doesn't hurt. Everything to gain, nothing to lose. No need to stumble around to finally express your ideas by accident. 
Jm2C
 
Cheers :)
post edited by mkerl - 2018/10/10 01:34:33

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Re: Meter/Key View: No Minor Keys? 2018/10/10 04:22:15 (permalink)
mkerl
To be honest - I would highly recommend to learn the fundamentals of Music Theory. It doesn't hurt. Everything to gain, nothing to lose. No need to stumble around to finally express your ideas by accident. 
Jm2C
 
Cheers :)


I actually did work through a music theory book back in the 70's. I'm fairly literate that way. However, like many I am primarily an "ear" guy. I think you learn a lot more by listening than by plowing through textbooks. All one really needs are the fundamentals: pitch, meter, keys, some basic harmony. Someone once said "Composers start composing first, and figure out how later." The essence of it is art, not theory. You only need theory to get it down correctly on paper. And rules especially are to be avoided. When asked what rules he followed, Debussy replied "My own." He was violating all kinds of crap, like parallel fifths, using exotic scales, etc. And he changed music forever.
 
Edit: Debussy actually said something like "Whatever please me." Which is exactly what Duke Ellington said: If it sounds good, it is good.
post edited by michael diemer - 2018/10/10 16:38:49

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Re: Meter/Key View: No Minor Keys? 2018/10/10 05:00:58 (permalink)
I've never fully understood why the snap to scale in the miditrack, doesn't usethe key signature to set it. Sure,it's handy to overide the Key signature, but it seems it should set the snap to scale key. This way when you have key signature changes the snape to scale key would follow it. 
 
I think Micheals request has some validity to it, and is something Bandlab should consider if they are implementing a chord track in their plans. as I IV V I would be become a i IV v i in dorian. Soitmay affect how it shows realted chord to the Key of the track.
 
Tangent :I'd like to see some keyboard shortcuts instead of just the snap to key option
Snap chromatically - drag
Snap diatonically - drag + keyboard shortcut 1
Snap to chord tone - drag + keyboard shortcut 2
Snap to octave - drag + keyboard shortcut 3
 

 
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Re: Meter/Key View: No Minor Keys? 2018/10/10 05:34:51 (permalink)
As CbB is expected to be on path to implement ARA2, then not only will the chord track be coming, but also the key signature functionality of Melodyne I would assume. The handshaking between Melodyne/DAW would need one to be able to drive the other (i.e., selecting key in one should update the other accordingly).

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Re: Meter/Key View: No Minor Keys? 2018/10/10 17:37:00 (permalink)
msmcleod
slartabartfast
....On the other hand, it would seem to be a relatively trivial piece of programming to teach the robot to understand/display the natural minor key. 



I'd like to see that algorithm. I think it's far from trivial.



Indeed, given a bunch of MIDI note numbers determining the key could be a trick. The existing programs to identify chords etc. are certainly not trivial. If that was your understanding of what I meant by the somewhat careless use of the word understand, I apologize, but what I was getting at, and Mr. Diemer was asking, is why SONAR/CBB does not show the minor key as an input choice. The current dialog displays a choice of the number of sharps or flats, which is shorthand describing which pitches are raised or lowered according to traditional music notation norms, and next to this in the same choice window the letter name of the major key that group of accidentals defines like this: D (2 sharps). It would seem to be a trivial job to have something like DM/Bm (2 sharps) appear in that dialog. That might make some users feel more comfortable at a low cost of development.
 
The key point (if you will excuse the pun) is that without  some knowledge of standard notation and some basic music theory, the user will not even know that he is going to have his F's and C's raised a semitone when he chooses 2 sharps. If he has attained that level of sophistication, then he probably can figure out the key names.
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Re: Meter/Key View: No Minor Keys? 2018/10/10 18:17:09 (permalink)
michael diemer
mkerl
To be honest - I would highly recommend to learn the fundamentals of Music Theory. It doesn't hurt. Everything to gain, nothing to lose. No need to stumble around to finally express your ideas by accident. 
Jm2C
 
Cheers :)


I actually did work through a music theory book back in the 70's. I'm fairly literate that way. However, like many I am primarily an "ear" guy. I think you learn a lot more by listening than by plowing through textbooks.

 
Back in the days with my teachers I didn't just read textbooks. I had to play chords, scales, changes, modes and classical pieces with my instrument - so I listened and tried to memorize the sound. Some things are really theoretical, like i.e. Chord Substitutions, but as a whole, it's like learning the (musical) language . . . and later on, when I discovered my awakening interest for jazz . . . . well, I think you are lost without some reliable basics . . . 
 


 
All one really needs are the fundamentals: pitch, meter, keys, some basic harmony. Someone once said "Composers start composing first, and figure out how later." The essence of it is art, not theory. You only need theory to get it down correctly on paper.

 
I don't think so. You need theory like you need grammar for writing literature or poetry - but you need to go beyond the theory to create art. There is a saying: "Learn your chords and scales and all that, then forget about it and just play" (C.Parker) That doesn't mean, that this technical stuff is useless, but you got to reach a point of "automation", when you don't have to think about technic anymore. You just know it. You have it in your fingers and ears.
And at that point of learning / knowing . . . . 

And rules especially are to be avoided. When asked what rules he followed, Debussy replied "My own." He was violating all kinds of crap, like parallel fifths, using exotic scales, etc. And he changed music forever.
 
Edit: Debussy actually said something like "Whatever please me." Which is exactly what Duke Ellington said: If it sounds good, it is good.



. . . . . one is able to break rules to create something new. But at first Debussy as well as Ellington had to learn the rules before they broke them. 
 
However, when you are happy with your way of playing / composing, great. Who am I to judge? Different strokes for different folks.
 
But I doubt this Key signature thing to be really useful. Harmonics are complex, and relative minor is such a small aspect, maybe it could hamper complex composing / improvising when you focus on that alone. Chord Track  (S1, Cubase) analyses vertical harmonics, not horizontal. 
Meanwhile, have fun :) 
 
Cheers :) 
 
BTW: Sorry for my english, I'm still trying. As I do with music  . . . ;)
post edited by mkerl - 2018/10/10 23:50:28

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Re: Meter/Key View: No Minor Keys? 2018/10/11 00:02:31 (permalink)
mkerl
michael diemer
mkerl
To be honest - I would highly recommend to learn the fundamentals of Music Theory. It doesn't hurt. Everything to gain, nothing to lose. No need to stumble around to finally express your ideas by accident. 
Jm2C
 
Cheers :)


I actually did work through a music theory book back in the 70's. I'm fairly literate that way. However, like many I am primarily an "ear" guy. I think you learn a lot more by listening than by plowing through textbooks.

 
Back in the days with my teachers I didn't just read textbooks. I had to play chords, scales, changes, modes and classical pieces with my instrument - so I listened and tried to memorize the sound. Some things are really theoretical, like i.e. Chord Substitutions, but as a whole, it's like learning the (musical) language . . . and later on, when I discovered my awakening interest for jazz . . . . well, I think you are lost without some reliable basics . . . 
 


All one really needs are the fundamentals: pitch, meter, keys, some basic harmony. Someone once said "Composers start composing first, and figure out how later." The essence of it is art, not theory. You only need theory to get it down correctly on paper.

 
I don't think so. You need theory like you need grammar for writing literature or poetry - but you need to go beyond the theory to create art. There is a saying: "Learn your chords and scales and all that, then forget about it and just play" (C.Parker) That doesn't mean, that this technical stuff is useless, but you got to reach a point of "automation", when you don't have to think about technic anymore. You just know it. You have it in your fingers and ears.
And at that point of learning / knowing . . . . 

And rules especially are to be avoided. When asked what rules he followed, Debussy replied "My own." He was violating all kinds of crap, like parallel fifths, using exotic scales, etc. And he changed music forever.
 
Edit: Debussy actually said something like "Whatever please me." Which is exactly what Duke Ellington said: If it sounds good, it is good.



. . . . . one is able to break rules to create something new. But at first Debussy as well as Ellington had to learn the rules before they broke them. 
 
However, when you are happy with your way of playing / composing, great. Who am I to judge? Different strokes for different folks.
 
But I doubt this Key signature thing to be really useful. Harmonics are complex, and relative minor is such a small aspect, maybe it could hamper complex composing / improvising when you focus on that alone. Chord Track  (S1, Cubase) analyses vertical harmonics, not horizontal. 
Meanwhile, have fun :) 
 
Cheers :) 
 
BTW: Sorry for my english, I'm still trying. As I do with music  . . . ;)


Your English is no problem, and you're way ahead of me, who am a typical American one-tongue-er (if that sentence makes any sense).
 
I should point out here that I am a hobbyisit. Anyone priming for a serious professional career as a composer (perhaps a dubious undertaking, unless you have connections in the film world - like, your last name is Newman), should learn as much as they can. As a hobbysit I have the luxury of learning as much as I need, to do what I want to do. Sometimes I wonder what it what have been like if I had gone to music school instead of pursuing a different career. But knowing me, I probably would have left as soon as someone tried to tell me how to write my music. There are too many highly-trained composers whose music sounds like, well, highly-trained composers.

michael diemer
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#22
chris.r
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Re: Meter/Key View: No Minor Keys? 2018/10/11 00:23:41 (permalink)
@mkerl great posting
#23
mkerl
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Re: Meter/Key View: No Minor Keys? 2018/10/11 01:24:39 (permalink)
michael diemer
mkerl
michael diemer
mkerl
To be honest - I would highly recommend to learn the fundamentals of Music Theory. It doesn't hurt. Everything to gain, nothing to lose. No need to stumble around to finally express your ideas by accident. 
Jm2C
 
Cheers :)


I actually did work through a music theory book back in the 70's. I'm fairly literate that way. However, like many I am primarily an "ear" guy. I think you learn a lot more by listening than by plowing through textbooks.

 
Back in the days with my teachers I didn't just read textbooks. I had to play chords, scales, changes, modes and classical pieces with my instrument - so I listened and tried to memorize the sound. Some things are really theoretical, like i.e. Chord Substitutions, but as a whole, it's like learning the (musical) language . . . and later on, when I discovered my awakening interest for jazz . . . . well, I think you are lost without some reliable basics . . . 
 


All one really needs are the fundamentals: pitch, meter, keys, some basic harmony. Someone once said "Composers start composing first, and figure out how later." The essence of it is art, not theory. You only need theory to get it down correctly on paper.

 
I don't think so. You need theory like you need grammar for writing literature or poetry - but you need to go beyond the theory to create art. There is a saying: "Learn your chords and scales and all that, then forget about it and just play" (C.Parker) That doesn't mean, that this technical stuff is useless, but you got to reach a point of "automation", when you don't have to think about technic anymore. You just know it. You have it in your fingers and ears.
And at that point of learning / knowing . . . . 

And rules especially are to be avoided. When asked what rules he followed, Debussy replied "My own." He was violating all kinds of crap, like parallel fifths, using exotic scales, etc. And he changed music forever.
 
Edit: Debussy actually said something like "Whatever please me." Which is exactly what Duke Ellington said: If it sounds good, it is good.



. . . . . one is able to break rules to create something new. But at first Debussy as well as Ellington had to learn the rules before they broke them. 
 
However, when you are happy with your way of playing / composing, great. Who am I to judge? Different strokes for different folks.
 
But I doubt this Key signature thing to be really useful. Harmonics are complex, and relative minor is such a small aspect, maybe it could hamper complex composing / improvising when you focus on that alone. Chord Track  (S1, Cubase) analyses vertical harmonics, not horizontal. 
Meanwhile, have fun :) 
 
Cheers :) 
 
BTW: Sorry for my english, I'm still trying. As I do with music  . . . ;)


Your English is no problem, and you're way ahead of me, who am a typical American one-tongue-er (if that sentence makes any sense).
 

Thank you. Since English is world language, I've to take the challenge. But I 'll still be an european blindworm . . . . 

 
I should point out here that I am a hobbyisit. Anyone priming for a serious professional career as a composer (perhaps a dubious undertaking, unless you have connections in the film world - like, your last name is Newman), should learn as much as they can. As a hobbysit I have the luxury of learning as much as I need, to do what I want to do. Sometimes I wonder what it what have been like if I had gone to music school instead of pursuing a different career. But knowing me, I probably would have left as soon as someone tried to tell me how to write my music.

 
Yeah, there was a time in my live, when I wanted to go the professional way. I was happy enough to have teachers and education with private teachers since childhood. But finally, I'm a passionate hobbyist, too. My last piano teacher always stated "It's never to late" when he faced me with horrible challenges . . . what I learned is,  learning never ends . . .
 
 
There are too many highly-trained composers whose music sounds like, well, highly-trained composers.


I know what you mean. Kind of Overeducated. I often watch jazz youngsters on stage running their scales up an down and up and down instead of improvising music. Lost in Technics  
Yeah, live is dangerous. I'll better take the dessert first 
 
Cheers :) 
 

Nothing to do but playing (Ch. Parker)
#24
mkerl
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Re: Meter/Key View: No Minor Keys? 2018/10/11 01:26:01 (permalink)
chris.r
@mkerl great posting



Thank you



Nothing to do but playing (Ch. Parker)
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