Metering RMS Peak and my A&L desk meters/ Solved

Hello.
Just getting into more of Sonar x3e...And it is working good so far.
 
I have a Question about metering...
When I do my recordings, I set my Allen and heath volumes so no clipping happens on the desk...I stay lower than zero/clipping on tracks input from the  recording room...Mostly just so the green light indicator flashes on the desk reading a good signal on all input tracks...but never into red on the desk.
In Sonar when monitoring , recording desk.. I seem to have things dancing at about -6.0 - -4 on Sonars meters, and I record 16 tracks at once.
 
Once I mix the track volumes I try to stay Just below -6.0 in sonars metering...But my A & L mixing desk reads +9 peaking into +10 when I play back those tracks.
 
Sonars master track reports loudest peak at -5.7
 
When Playing back audio through Sonar, checking the Volumes with T-racks CS on the master track...using brick wall limiter...I get..
 
Peak loudness -6.2 - -5.7 average
perceived loudness -16 ish
RMS -16 ish
 
Seems to be the average dancing states on my mix.
 
So is my A & L Desk reading things wrong?...Do I have to make setting changes to the  Sonar preferences metering to match?....Because I do not see how I am to master Close to Zero, if I am almost clipping /maxing out the desk vu's at + 9 just going into +10.
 
I tried to turn down the output volume for the speakers output in windows 7, But that has been taken over by Sonar...So nothing seems to work in that regard...seems a mismatch to me?...and am wondering if I have to go into preferences and play with the metering in there to match up with the desks Vu meters if that is possible?...because I do not want to blow anything on the desk...she is very expensive and important in this.
 
Does not seem to be any switch or knob on the desk itself, to control input from the computer other than play back volume to the monitors...So I would imagine it is set to a standard value...meaning I have to do the tweak via computer...if so?
 
Second...I have read that in t-racks there is a green zone for perceived loudness, and RMS..=  around -10 - -9 ish
How does one get to those values with out increasing volume output from the computer? ...which in my case would blow my Vu's on the desk trying to do.
 
Thought I would ask ...
 
Thanks and regards!
 
 
 

Ok Thanks,  BJN for the help, to try to setup and or resolve this Vol mismatch....I really do not want to blow my desk vu's.
I was using a Template made by Allen & Health for Sonar X1 made by Allen and Heath...and I found Sonar had some templates for my desk which were more setup in terms of control surfaces...I was thinking, most of this volume tweaking was done by the makers of those templates?...But then again I do not see this desk being said to be in support in X3....and seeing as some of the Sonar engine has been recoded...and bug fixes going on...Perhaps..My thinking is in error?...I did not notice this occurring so much in past Sonar builds...But my attention was not focused on that...it was focused on getting Sonar and my PC to work...Now it seems to be working.."MY PC"...and so I am now more focused on the learning curve and proper setup.
 
So Yes I am being careful with this Desk.. I am noticing it is not right at this point...with template defaults.
 
Trim is located on the console view in Sonar...from what I can see.
Console view= lifting up the window to expose the whole view of the console... There is a volume knob to turn above the faders...it is set to zero....This is "trim" from my knowledge of mixing desks...I played with this knob.
When I turn this knob down or up...The master volume meter drops or rises in Sonar, and the meter on my desk also in relationship to each other ....is this correctly now showing right values in Sonar as opposed to the tracks feeding it??...Just wanting to make sure....because if the value drops in Sonar and on my desk respectively speaking when turning down or up that knob, it equally reduces or adds by the same amounts to both...the mismatch is still present....cause Sonar will read X and the desk will read Y levels...respectively being reduced and noticed...at this point in this project...
 
Perhaps I need a test tone?...So I can check this out better and or set up the right volume values without HP, and Low Shelf filtering...to start.?
Then do any volume leveling I may need to do to correct volume mismatch, if there is one...once that is setup right...I can then base my HP and LP and shelving practices more correctly on recorded content, as any over loaded volume or spikes would dictate the need for HP and or LP filtering when noted?
 
So I will go get some test tones and report back when I try that out.
 
The odd thing is, through my mixing desk to the monitor speakers M-audio BX8a's updated, the tune rocks!...so I think I got the mix sort of right....in a sort of wrong way....LOL
Perhaps these Monitor speakers are not the best for low end sub frequencies to be display upon...?
 
I have looked at the EQ frequencies in the Blue cat Plug in on the master track...Low end is a bit higher than the rest of the frequencies...But they want it that way...so they say...so far.
 
Thanks BJN
 
Cheers!
 
Sir Les
 
 
 
 

OK Perhaps my question is not clear?
 
I found these red master faders in this Sonar A & L template showing when opened...as a new project...and brought in two test tones...track 1 is a linear 1hz 96khz 48k tone of a whistling sound...track 2 is a log 1hz 96khz 48k tone.
 
The blue meter master fader when played back with out any reduction of track one reads -3dbfs...
The red meter master fader also reads -3dbfs without any reduction of track one...reads -3dbfs.
The A & L mixing desk vu reads +9 into +10....perhaps analog?...although the range goes from -30 to +16.
As the desk vu lights mostly in the +9 range and just goes into the red +16 range I averaged out a +10ish reading of assumption.
If it were to stay red in that zone, I would assume a more higher value of +16 would be necessary.
 
Now to get the volume to show -3 on the A & L mixing desk, so it is the same as the blue master vu meter....it seems the red faders need to come down, so that the  master blue  vu's stay the same -3, but the output of the computer is reduced...so by turning down the red fader to -19.6= -22.6 peak on that red master reading display...I get a vu reading of close to -3 on the A & L mixing desk, with out causing reduction on the track or blue master bus...which is what I am looking to do in my project.
 
Turning the red faders down or up seems to be linked to the computers  volume output.....? as it does not seem to effect the Blue master vu's, but does effect the output to the A & L Desk.
Seems the track is linked to ch 1/ch1/2 it is stereo...there are nine red master each for different output pair?...I have eight red masters, plus one main L and R.  ..I guess I have routing possibilities to each red output...if that is what they are.?
 
 
Now in my project I used a different Template...I do not see red master volume faders in that template....this is what I think I am looking for to reduce the volume to the desk....cause something is not right and the vu's on the desk do not match up to the showing Blue Vu's readings.
 
So How do I get this "Red master volume control" to show up in my project template I am using?   ...what is it called?...So I may read up on it?..or some one can explain in proper terms , what it is, so I do not assume like I have been doing....because I see it in the bus info Pictures in the help file on Busses...But it is not mentioned how to get it to show up, or what it is called.
 
 
Thanks for any help....
 
I will keep reading...and watching the tutorial videos I bought ...But a faster line would be to ask the pro's here.
 
Or are the red master faders called trim?...and not the Gain knob at the top of each track and blue buss?
 
 cause I am confused now...more mead please.
 
Cheers!
 
 
 

Go to console page and scroll up to find the trim knob. Back these down. Put the red out bus back up to zero. Keep all faders at zero while you calibrate the trim knobs.
Yes the test tone is a good idea.
 
If no pink noise play a mix CD. Most Engineers have a reference CD they carry to listen to when in different studio's. This is a whole subject in itself.
Right now feed a CD thru a couple of channels of Sonar.
Adjust the trims to match the best when fed to your desk.
Then set all trims,except the master bus the same level and save as a template .
Later during your mix you might have to lower the master trim to best match going in your desk.
 
Also best to keep posts here on the forum short as when too long no one will want to read it.

Well BJN...I do not see this as being the way...as you put forth...It seems if... as all things are equal from track 1-16, to Blue master vu's and plug ins showing right when soloing...I would assume those readings in Sonar and plug ins are correct....turning down the trim does reduce over all volume of those busses or tracks, but  the true values being read or received...in the PC world...those readings are correctly showing as they are...No problem with them being as they are...if true!...and each vu tells they are in Sonar...except in output of the PC to the desk.
 
The problem is with what is coming out of the PC....it is getting too hot...at -6db in PC LAND...to Mixing console or DESK vu...is all I am worried about......and turning down the output from the PC is all I need to do...I believe....and I can raise the volume with the amp on the desk without raising the  Desk's vu monitoring of the PC main  output.
 
Which is why I tried to do this in Windows speaker applet, but it does not respond....as when In sonar it takes control of that....I believe the red master and the output to the desk are in some way assigned to these....if I am reading them correctly?...that is where I need to deduce.....
 
Now all is true in the Sonar aspect...and No worries about overloading my Desk....Problem solved.
 
Question...What is the name of the red master volume buss, and or it's function// or where is it located in terms of help files in routing, and how to?...I am sure it is in that reference point of info I will find some instruction to help me understand....Sonar better.
 
As I have little education in terms of vocabulary and language laws.....My posts do get exceedingly large... Sorry for that... in simple words ....but that is another story to tell the big Kohuna chief in the sky when he comes...as to why I am, what I am...and what made me that way.....wink.
 
Again thanks for all the help...in a round about way...You helped me find and solve for X.
 
Blessings! and cheers...
 
 
P.S...I still need some direction into the manual...to find. reason...and I will put solved in the title...wink wink.
 
 
 

Yah John...I think I am assuming that correctly now...now I see the Blue assigns to the red...and the red do the output to the desk....Thanks for making it clearer.
I do not think the Gain or trim is the answer for me...at this time line.
 
Again thanks all.
 
I will put solved in...and now I know it is output assignments I can look into it faster and learn.
 
 
Cheers!
 
 

I'm very glad you have this problem solved. 

Yes there is a learning curve but it is enjoyable.
I been recording and mixing since 1982 and am still learning to look.
For example, you list all your gear on the bottom page of your posts! LOLOL I totally missed looking at them till I wondered what the A&L desk was.LOL
It is an A&H R16, very nice. Firewire. There should be drivers and some sort of control of the Firewire ports. 
You might find hints on the A&H user forum. I am sure there would be one.
 
As for the power surges a power transformer with a coupled earth is best. Some " power conditioners" that cost big dollars are little more than surge protectors with a battery. It is not always a case of getting what you pay for. Look into it but get into Sonar and your desk. 
I'd love one!
 
 
 

Sorry - one clarification. I skimmed one of your posts and noticed you had to pull the fader in Sonar down to -19.6 to get the A&H's meters to looks the same as Sonar's. That suggests the A&H is using the -20dBFS=0dBu convention.
You can always look at it this way too if it's easier to get your head around it: 0dBFS= +20dBu. Either way, under that convention, a signal showing -3 in Sonar should show +17 on your A&H.

<clarification edited for clarification>