Methodolgy/workflow for song creation

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cb8rwh
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2005/06/01 12:11:50 (permalink)

Methodolgy/workflow for song creation

Hi all,

as the title suggests what methodology do you guys use when creating songs? i.e. lay down drums, then bass then chords etc

I, myself, currently seem to be working out a chord progression (seem to be using only 1 key at the moment and 1 or a half measure for each chord - very basic, like my knowledge of music!!!!) Then put down an initial bass line or drum beat and go from there. I seem to struggle to develop a tune this way tho

I know song creation methods are a personal thing, just wondering how you lot go about it.

Thanks for getting to the end of this post.

Rich
#1

27 Replies Related Threads

    mike85021
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    RE: Methodolgy/workflow for song creation 2005/06/01 12:18:59 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: cb8rwh
    ...what methodology do you guys use when creating songs?


    The method that works best for me is to sit down to my keyboard, and jam (chord progressions, riffs, whatever) with a bunch of different synth sounds until I find something that suggests a song. Then I work out drums and other fill.

    Mikey T
    Eclectica de Esoterium
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  • #2
    blipp
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    RE: Methodolgy/workflow for song creation 2005/06/01 12:23:08 (permalink)
    I just create a load of loops and stick them together to arrange a song. It seems to be the only way i can work. It's served me well so far so i'll probably stick with it.

    I know next to nothing about musical theory and could'nt play a chord on the keyboard to save my life. Just do what sounds good is my motto. i don't think knowing musical theory would really help me that much for the type of tracks i produce. Not knowing forces you to use your imagination more and means that you don't sound like anybody else.

    #3
    gourdjopy
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    RE: Methodolgy/workflow for song creation 2005/06/01 12:59:23 (permalink)
    it's probably a good idea to try out as many techiques as possible to see what works. i spent quite a long time messing with songs that started from basslines before i realized that it's an approach that simply doesn't fit for me.

    sometimes i start with a really straightforward chord progression and then create melodic material on top of that, sometimes i start with a melodic fragment and then harmonize it (or decide not to use functional harmony), and sometimes i just work with sounds and then improvise on top of them by throwing out the rulebook altogether. using drums as a starting point or "bed" works for me sometimes, sometimes not.

    i guess what i'm trying to say is, i've found that it helps to break down the fundamental things you plan on manipulating and then try writing songs starting from each. eventually, something clicks and you find a lot of ideas that you like all at once. then you get stuck again...
    #4
    Phoenix
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    RE: Methodolgy/workflow for song creation 2005/06/01 13:51:58 (permalink)
    There are probably as many different approaches as there are musicians. Since I was a singer/songwriter before I even played guitar, I usually start from a melody or fragment of one. But sometimes I find what started out as a melody line would be better off dropped an octave and becoming a bass line, and the whole thing changes. I think as you use new song creation tools, your methodology changes, too. Just experiment and be open to trying new things.
    #5
    soulkraka
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    RE: Methodolgy/workflow for song creation 2005/06/01 14:37:08 (permalink)
    If I just sit down at my comp and start "jamming" its almost always ends up being a bit of a waste of time. I may LEARN something new technically, but as far as starting something that I'll want to continue to work on it almost never happens. The exception is when I jam with at least one other person....then something cool can come out of it.

    Anything Ive finished I had the basic concept, melody, or idea in my head before I sat down at the comp. The difficulty with this is that I get ideas when Im driving, working etc etc so I end of being desperate not to forget the idea that Im humming!!! I turn off the radio, stop talking to my girlfriend, or hum her the melody and force her to memorize it...whatever it takes!! LOL
    #6
    woodamand
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    RE: Methodolgy/workflow for song creation 2005/06/01 14:39:24 (permalink)
    I have written about this quite a lot on my blog so you can just jump over there:
    http://www.braintransfer.org/brain_scripts/MT/mt-search.cgi?IncludeBlogs=2&search=songwriting

    check out the new Brain Transfer Project CD
    http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/braintransfer
    #7
    Grey
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    RE: Methodolgy/workflow for song creation 2005/06/01 14:43:35 (permalink)
    I've always written and arranged each song in my head, long before I ever take it into the studio. I'll work on it mentally for a month or two, and then I know exactly what I want when it comes time to record. I can't remember a lyric to save my soul, but I never forget a song. The upside is that it saves alot of time, and I know the song is going to be good (if it survived in my head for two months without me getting sick of it). The downside is that mere experimentation can provide ideas that I've probably missed by not being more hands on. Lately, I've actually been trying to spend more time 'jamming', and less time thinking.
    #8
    woodamand
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    RE: Methodolgy/workflow for song creation 2005/06/01 15:18:31 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: blipp
    I know next to nothing about musical theory and could'nt play a chord on the keyboard to save my life. Just do what sounds good is my motto. i don't think knowing musical theory would really help me that much for the type of tracks i produce. Not knowing forces you to use your imagination more and means that you don't sound like anybody else.

    For some reason, many people think that knowing some basic music theory will somehow limit your imagingation, as if you would be given some "rules" that you cannot "break". How would you know if something would help or not if you don't know what that something is?
    Please note that I am NOT trying to get on your case, and maybe its because I teach guitar that I feel knowing at least some basic theory expands your imagination, regardless of what kind of music you produce.
    In this light, you might want to take a gander at The Ravens Spriral Guide to Music Theory, which is aimed at songwriting. Its funny, and accurate, and I use it with my own students, who seem to enjoy it.
    Again, I am only trying to tell you that the more you know, the more options and more music you can produce, IMHO.

    check out the new Brain Transfer Project CD
    http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/braintransfer
    #9
    blipp
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    RE: Methodolgy/workflow for song creation 2005/06/01 15:38:12 (permalink)
    For some reason, many people think that knowing some basic music theory will somehow limit your imagingation, as if you would be given some "rules" that you cannot "break". How would you know if something would help or not if you don't know what that something is?
    Please note that I am NOT trying to get on your case, and maybe its because I teach guitar that I feel knowing at least some basic theory expands your imagination, regardless of what kind of music you produce.
    In this light, you might want to take a gander at The Ravens Spriral Guide to Music Theory, which is aimed at songwriting. Its funny, and accurate, and I use it with my own students, who seem to enjoy it.
    Again, I am only trying to tell you that the more you know, the more options and more music you can produce, IMHO.


    Cheers woodamand. I can appreciate what you're saying. I do know more on the guitar than i do keyboard, ie chords and notes. I'll check that site out anyway, cheers.
    #10
    Jaydubz
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    RE: Methodolgy/workflow for song creation 2005/06/01 15:42:02 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: woodamand
    Again, I am only trying to tell you that the more you know, the more options and more music you can produce, IMHO.


    Amen, Dana - and I've just enjoyed taking a break from the daily grind and reading your blog. Good stuff - as an "almost 50 L.A.-bred bedroom composer" I can really relate to your writings!

    "Music is the best." - FZ
    #11
    gourdjopy
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    RE: Methodolgy/workflow for song creation 2005/06/01 15:43:07 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: blipp
    I know next to nothing about musical theory and could'nt play a chord on the keyboard to save my life. Just do what sounds good is my motto. i don't think knowing musical theory would really help me that much for the type of tracks i produce. Not knowing forces you to use your imagination more and means that you don't sound like anybody else.


    i was going to react to this as well, but thought i'd hold off because i'm really of two minds about this issue and the length of my post is offputting to me.

    some of my favorite artists who were deeply innovative, like bela bartok, claude debussy, miles davis, john cale, tom jenkinson (squarepusher), and steve reich are well schooled in theory and technique. herbie hancock once said something along the lines of, "some people will tell you that too much music training will take away your soul. but if you've really got soul, you hold on to it, you guard it carefully, and you don't let anything take it away." i try to use what i know about jazz harmony and rhythm to build new ideas, and often this knowledge forces me to confront what i'm doing that's cliched very directly. i'm not saying i'm successful, but i'm saying i think it helps me be better than i would otherwise.

    at the same time (and here's where i am of two minds), some of the most innovative composers of the 20th century, like schoenberg and stravinsky, were not especially well trained in music theory, and some very creative artists like john lennon and thurston moore readily admit (or admitted) to having no formal training in music. at one point, john lewis from the modern jazz quartet tried to teach ornette coleman some music theory and ornette literally vomited when he tried to get his head around it. i also really like blipp's music, which apparently isn't theory based.

    in the end, whether one's training serves as a springboard or a hinderance probably says more about the person than the training; whether one's lack of training leads one to tread water in a rudderless sea, or if this same lack of training sets the stage for real breakthroughs also says more about the person than the lack of training.
    #12
    blipp
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    RE: Methodolgy/workflow for song creation 2005/06/01 15:56:34 (permalink)
    If i was being completely honest i'd say yes, i wish i could play the piano to a good standard and be able to read music. When i did my last piano piece a few weeks ago i would have liked to be able to write it down and replay it. I'm not sure i have the motivation to learn it all now though. It takes long enough now to get myself motivated to write new tracks. I think what i'm really trying to say is i'm a lazy sod.
    #13
    gourdjopy
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    RE: Methodolgy/workflow for song creation 2005/06/01 16:04:00 (permalink)
    i hope you don't feel like people are jumping on you, blipp. i thought what you said was interesting and you have a point. it's a very complex, and interesting, question to me. historicism vs. avant-guardism is probably the aesthetic issue of the 20th century, and probably will be for the next 100 years as well.
    #14
    blipp
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    RE: Methodolgy/workflow for song creation 2005/06/01 16:08:18 (permalink)
    i hope you don't feel like people are jumping on you, blipp. i thought what you said was interesting and you have a point.


    No worries gourdjopy. I never take myself seriously when making music's concerned, hence the avatar. This is just a fun thing for me and if people like what i do then that's a bonus.
    #15
    mumpcake
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    RE: Methodolgy/workflow for song creation 2005/06/02 00:28:02 (permalink)
    I have a few methodologies.

    Sometimes I'll start off with a melody in my head. I'll lay that melody out and work stuff around it.

    Sometimes I'll have a chord progression, and then I'll see what goes with that.

    Sometimes I start from a bass riff.

    Sometimes I'll be browsing loops and notice that a couple of them could go together.

    Sometimes I'll throw loops together to see if they fit, or if they hint at a melody.

    Sometimes I'll be auditioning patches and it leads to something.

    #16
    mumpcake
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    RE: Methodolgy/workflow for song creation 2005/06/02 00:43:00 (permalink)
    For some reason, many people think that knowing some basic music theory will somehow limit your imagingation, as if you would be given some "rules" that you cannot "break".


    Often limiting choices will force you to be more creative.

    Occasionally I like to set some rules for myself. Perhaps I'll start off trying to do a fugue or 12-tone serialism or some mathematical arrangement. It usually results in something that just sounds "off", but sometimes I can salvage something vaguely musical out of it - by breaking the rules I have set for myself.
    #17
    DayDrumFour
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    RE: Methodolgy/workflow for song creation 2005/06/02 02:37:33 (permalink)
    Like most in here, I would start with one element and build the rest around it. Recently though, with my chord riffs getting better, I find myself just sitting and playing them for a while. I'm no pianist by any stretch but I feel like I'm improving. I'm also getting a hoot out of Cyclone/loop remixing my favorite songs. Haven't been recording that stuff either. Go figure. I always thought I needed something recorded. Lately I'll just get up and leave the room with nothing but a smile.
    #18
    wrench45us
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    RE: Methodolgy/workflow for song creation 2005/06/02 09:17:18 (permalink)


    my main interest is chord progressions and textures

    so I usually start out fooling with a piano sound and get one or two 4 to 8 bar progression going
    then I might move that into a pad
    Or i might start with a pad because a lot of times some keys and some progressions fit better with certain pads ( i suppose because of inherent harmonic content of the pad - but piano is maybe harmonically neutral)

    then to get things rolling I'll find some basic drum pattern that 'fits'
    sooner or later I'll begin to tweak that drum pattern for a better fit -- fills and acents in the proper places and variations to signal changes -- but to get started it just needs to be basic

    then I'll start to rip the chord progression apart and feed different parts of it to different instrument sounds to build textures. take the top and bottom and feed it to one sound, strip off the top and bottom and keep the middle with another sound -- transpose some portion and layer another sound - maybe add 6ths, 7th and such to another sound

    lately i've been 'extending' one instruments chord into another -- so as one fades another continues, maybe the same notes, maybe same chord, but different inversion or some variation, so overlapping as well as layering

    on the pieces I like best I build a more or less melodic bass part from the chord progression, the bass part may likely have some passing tones and some dotted note work to kind of push/pull the rhythm

    then I add some rhythmic elements that follow along to add a different texture to drive things along. things like 16th pulses but with accents moving around a little

    at some point I need a chorus or bridge or something and I'll either have that worked out ahead of time or need to work one up when there's the overwhelming need for a break

    that is really when I find some theory useful to have a notion of what key I'm in and where I can go that will offer something that still fits harmonically but goes in a different direction for a while -- maybe a different related key or minor to major movement -- not that I'm versed in all this, but I use the songwriting to help train in all that
    i find it useful to write down the chord progressions in case I get lost when they're all broken up across different instruments. (I could label my patterns, but I don't.)
    i tend to follow some basic conventions of repeating with variation 8 or 16 bar 2 or 4 times and offering a break of 2 x 8 bars. it gives the listener some orientation to structure
    and makes any break from that structure stand out.

    and I listen a lot, and like to keep some things subtle to reward repeated listenings
    i really don't expect most of the above is of much use to anybody except maybe that last sentence



     


    #19
    agincourtdb
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    RE: Methodolgy/workflow for song creation 2005/06/02 10:09:19 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: gourdjopy

    at the same time (and here's where i am of two minds), some of the most innovative composers of the 20th century, like schoenberg and stravinsky, were not especially well trained in music theory,


    I can't let this go by. Being a fan of both, and a former theory-comp major, I have to ask, what makes you think these two weren't especially well trained? Stravinsky being a brilliant composer *and* orchestrator (which is a very 'formal' skill, believe me,) and Schoenberg having literally invented a whole new formal branch of theory, it just strikes me as an odd position to take.

    In actuality, Stravinsky studied formally with Rimsky-Korsakov for more than a year (in addition to any normal musical instruction he may have recieved as a youth (from an online bio: "Stravinsky met Rimsky-Korsakov's son, and his interest in composition grew as he spent more time composing on his own. Up till then, he had taken private lessons in harmony, and he intended to enter the Russian Conservatory. It was in this mood that he brought his works before Rimsky-Korsakov, head of the Conservatory. Sensing the talent in the young man, Rimsky-Korsakov invited Stravinsky to take private lessons from himself. Stravinsky was delighted and readily accepted. ") I've been in a relationship like this (private composition lessons) and believe you me, Igor got his theory.

    Schoenberg has been described as "self-taught" but that doesn't mean he didn't know theory. It just means he learned it on his own. Schoenberg's early (tonal) compositions clearly show a deep knowledge of and facility with functional tertian harmony. Schoenberg once told student John Cage that if he didn't learn theory, there would be a brick wall obstructing his progress. (Cage replied that he would beat his head against that wall.)

    Anyway, I guess ultimately my point is, knowing a system that one then departs from brilliantly is quite a bit different from not knowing it and casting about uncertain.



    #20
    wrench45us
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    RE: Methodolgy/workflow for song creation 2005/06/02 10:27:57 (permalink)

    my friend in Ca. constantly relates the story of Ornette Coleman (i believe) takin a year or two off from playing just to practice scales and modes

    i figure there must be a reason

    can someone confirm this story? do I have the right player?


     


    #21
    gourdjopy
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    RE: Methodolgy/workflow for song creation 2005/06/02 11:31:11 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: agincourtdb

    I can't let this go by. Being a fan of both, and a former theory-comp major, I have to ask, what makes you think these two weren't especially well trained? Stravinsky being a brilliant composer *and* orchestrator (which is a very 'formal' skill, believe me,) and Schoenberg having literally invented a whole new formal branch of theory, it just strikes me as an odd position to take.



    when i say "not especially well trained" i meant, not part of the "system" of music education that produced bartok or debussy, both of whom were trained in theory and composition since they were children. stravinksy and schoenberg did both know conventional music theory, but it was something each picked up more catch-as-catch-can over time compared to the more systematic education many would receive. r-k noticed stravinsky's native talent as a composer and then taught him (only for one year, as you note), but stravinsky was already a good composer before this training, and he wasn't an insider in the music education system. stravinsky's additive rhythmic concept and schoenberg's serialism are both at the core theoretical developments, so i don't mean to suggest that either was naive about theory. rather, i think these writers developed their skills outside of the academy and may have developed their own ideas because they hit composition from out of left field rather than starting from conventional education.
    #22
    agincourtdb
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    RE: Methodolgy/workflow for song creation 2005/06/02 11:35:37 (permalink)
    I completely agree with that.


    #23
    gourdjopy
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    RE: Methodolgy/workflow for song creation 2005/06/02 11:48:52 (permalink)
    yes, it's good that you made me clarify. i may have been glossing the facts a little bit to make a more interesting story of "dichotomous methods of composing." i always like a chance to dig into the theory stuff again. i haven't been in music classes for years (and years, and years) so this is one of my rare opportunities to discuss such topics.
    #24
    woodamand
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    RE: Methodolgy/workflow for song creation 2005/06/02 16:08:05 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: Jaydubz


    ORIGINAL: woodamand
    Again, I am only trying to tell you that the more you know, the more options and more music you can produce, IMHO.


    Amen, Dana - and I've just enjoyed taking a break from the daily grind and reading your blog. Good stuff - as an "almost 50 L.A.-bred bedroom composer" I can really relate to your writings!

    Ha! We must be lodge brothers then! And on that other thread about your studio - is that a bass clarinet I see hiding there amidst the the sax and flutes? If so I am even more envious of your gear....
    Thanks for taking the time to read the blog, happy you enjoyed it!

    check out the new Brain Transfer Project CD
    http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/braintransfer
    #25
    Jaydubz
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    RE: Methodolgy/workflow for song creation 2005/06/03 23:39:35 (permalink)
    woodamand - It's an alto clar., not quite as cool as the bass - but great sounding nonetheless. I grew up lusting after the Zappa woodwind player's rigs!

    "Music is the best." - FZ
    #26
    crabtwins
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    RE: Methodolgy/workflow for song creation 2005/06/04 22:21:42 (permalink)
    I was reading through some of the responses here and I just wanted to add a few comments:
    1. I am so new to making music with p5 that I cant say I have a process it isnt an methodical do the same thing everytime kind of thing. I spend alot of time listening to sounds, experimenting, etc..

    2. About the music theory aspect. I have made what I consider to be some very good beats and I also had next to no knowledge of theory. I do however have many years of dj'ing where there is a lot of mixing going on and making mix tapes also helped understanding the importance of keeping the listener interested, progression, breaks(how they should flow) etc.). The point that I wanted to make though was that I have been studying some music theory and finding it very useful. Mostly books like the Psychology of Music and Mixing Engineer guide. It took me a while though to find what I wanted, there is a bunch of stuff out there about scales and chords and majors/minors that was very dry!

    I would stay away from trying to imitate others technique, not that you or anyone here is trying to do that. Of course, it helps to start somewhere, but in the long run I think good music is a result of a unique composition, but I am a romantic idealist who believes in totally UNIQUE music. Enough! I'm outta here.

    #27
    MysticMizer
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    RE: Methodolgy/workflow for song creation 2005/06/04 23:45:03 (permalink)
    That's a great question, with no definitive answer. I'm not sure if this is a P5 question or not so i will give you my feedback in more general terms.

    Some people can compose symphonies in their heads and can lay down tracks on most instruments flawlessly the first time. These type really require no "workflow" as all they need is a metronome...and off they go...they can work in any order they choose (my guess is they usually start with the hook or melody, and build around it)

    Personally I have three methods of song construction. Which one I employ depends on how well defined the idea is to start

    1) If I already know all the parts of a song I will always start with the rhythm section. I play guitar bass and keys....so playing over drums and bass is a lot more fun than playing over a click track. I usually try and keep it as simple as possible to start usually just a drum and a snare.... sometimes high hats because in the end I want the drums to follow the composition, not the other way around. So after I lay down the "foundation" with a simple drum and bass pattern I am free to unleash with guitar or key parts that define the tune. Then in the end I will go back and embellish the drums and bass with walks, fills, frills what have you.


    2) Sometimes I will be walking down the street and I will get a something form the ethers.
    In this case, as soon as I get home I will just lay down the melody against a click track.
    In this case I almost always work on a 8-16 bar melody in it's entirety, full drum treatment, bass section, and patch selection, until I capture the full sound and feel of what I heard in my head....from there I will typically clone that entire track so the instrument sections, and settings are all the same....and commence constructing the song by making changes to the original.


    3) Sometimes I have no inspiration at all. When this happens I resign myself to just jamming on one of the instruments over an interesting drum loop, experimenting with sound on the keys...what have you.... then (when and if) something comes... I usually employ method number two...unless an idea comes in so strong that I can construct the entire thing in my head.

    As far as P5 workflow specifically...learn the Groove Matrix...it's the songwriters best friend.

    Hope that helps.











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