Metronome "click track" versus drum track

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silvercn
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2014/04/05 19:12:38 (permalink)

Metronome "click track" versus drum track

Need help on why this is happening between my playing along with and getting into the beat of a metronome versus a drum sample track. I am sure that all is sync'd to the project tempo. So in playing an acoustic guitar strum with the metronome, it feels right and I like how it fits. So then, drop and drag in a drum sample and it seems off --- the "groove" supposedly at the same tempo throws me off and my strumming part gets off! I am thinking maybe I am choosing the wrong clip. Perhaps the problem is that the drum clip I chose must be originally recorded at the exact tempo as the project I am now working in? Not sure - please advise.. 
 
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    Jeff Evans
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    Re: Metronome "click track" versus drum track 2014/04/05 21:56:34 (permalink)
    I think it comes down to what you like playing to. A click or a groove. Have you tried listening to the groove AND the click to see how they relate to each other. Not for the purposes of the recording but just to do a check and see how well the groove sits with the click. They may not necessarily line up that well. People assume they will but sometimes they dont. Maybe the groove has to be slipped in time ie early or late in order to line up nicely with the click.
     
    Then once you do that you can turn off say the click and try playing to the groove. Ultimately it is all in your hands as to how good your timing might be. If it is sloppy then there is not much you can do and if it is tight and right on then yes you should end up with a nice tight guitar part that sits with either the groove or click all the way through. It is harder to play against strict time ie a groove or click than one thinks. It takes years of practice. Just ask Steve Gadd.

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    RobertB
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    Re: Metronome "click track" versus drum track 2014/04/05 22:18:04 (permalink)
    Is it audio or MIDI?
    It may just be the wrong clip for the purpose. As Jeff noted, the groove may not be on the metronome beat.
    For instance, I tend like a swing or shuffle, and these have very different feels from a straight metronome.

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    silvercn
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    Re: Metronome "click track" versus drum track 2014/04/06 01:53:31 (permalink)
    Glad to know it's just now me...that there can these inherent differences between click and groove. I did play them together once and got to notice how they don't match. I just need to fool around with both more and figure out how this works best for me...
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    jamesg1213
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    Re: Metronome "click track" versus drum track 2014/04/06 09:27:07 (permalink)
    Maybe try strumming a few bars over the metronome, then create a simple click (kick & hi-hat maybe), quantize that, stretch it out, and dump the metronome. That way you can catch the groove of what you're playing.

     
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    michaelhanson
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    Re: Metronome "click track" versus drum track 2014/04/06 09:50:26 (permalink)
    I always use a drum track for my metronome. I spend a lot of time locating the basic drum track that I am going to use for the song, prior to recording the main rhythm tracks. I play with them at various speeds until I find the BPM that feel most natural to my playing. I want to play my rhythm tracks to the actual drums used to make sure that I find a groove with that drum pattern and accentuate the beats on my guitar that feel like they are playing with the drummer.

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    Jay Tee 4303
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    Re: Metronome "click track" versus drum track 2014/04/06 10:31:20 (permalink)
    My "click" is snare and kick, not even any hihat. I've got a lot of snap in the snare and a lot of click in the kick, and I set them up in the step sequencer with no swing at all. For composition, I need tight timing, not groove.
     
    Once I have the major elements arranged, I much prefer chasing groove with a real drummer and a feedback loop with at least one other musician. In my experience, drummers can lock with this kind of click, AND with tracks laid down to this kind of click, easier than others I've tried.
     
    Sometimes I can point em in the right direction with a freeform hat, sometimes it gets in the way.
     
    There are no perfect solutions, but you might give this a try just to see what happens.

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    silvercn
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    Re: Metronome "click track" versus drum track 2014/04/06 12:15:21 (permalink)
    It is certainly apparent from these posts that it is not just a simple matter of starting to record with a preset metronome click track with the idea that you can just replace that with a drum track that fits..
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    Jay Tee 4303
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    Re: Metronome "click track" versus drum track 2014/04/06 13:37:02 (permalink)
    One, two, three, four...might create a structure you, or another creative mind can add to and develop, and its going to be very difficult to do that without a rhythmic structure, even if you're in the same room, but..,
     
    ...think on the difference between the acoustic guitar strumming you mention, of single down strums, one, two, three, four...and alternating, one and two and three and four and...now leave one or more out, beats or ands...or take it further, and throw in a ...three and a four and a....they are whole different animals.
     
    If you pick one and stick to it rigidly, then bring a drummer in, he is able to lag and or push the beat at micro intervals 
    that are dwarfed by the relatively large difference between three and four, and three and a four.  When he does, (for better or worse), a live rhythm guitar is going to respond to that, in opposition, back towards rhythmic rigidity, or in support, varying the timing more yet, again for better or worse, after which, the drummer will further respond, either direction, and synergy will accelerate until it declines and the direction takes substance, or the pkayers diverge and work seperately.
     
    That's why, for me, its not really music till at least one other creative mind has some input to it. (This could be the same person, on a different day and in a different headspace.)
     
    Topping it off, one person's better is another's worst.  This leads me to a fundamental separation between rhythmic structure, and groove. Many stick to a simple metronome for structure, but I've noticed its easier for people I play with, me included, to start w snare and kick, probably for two reasons. One is what everybody is keying on for rhythmic foundation, and drums live in different frequency domains than the click of a metronome. Two, the envelope of a drum is longer that a click, and there's more tolerance in timing, which has both timing, and confidence, repercussions. I prefer not to...train...partners to listen for a mid and upper mid click,  then take that away and replace it with a low end kick.
     
    On a side note, to me, the hats are so expressive that I like to keep them out of the equation till everybody is on the same page, structure is commonly understood, and we're past that into groove and swing. But I also don't like to get too far away from the highly transient and precise nature of the metronome either, so my click tracks reach for a balance between the two.  This works for me...today... and might easily change tomorrow, so its not even a suggestion, but instead, simply discussion, simplifying certain areas and priorities, for the purpose of exploration, rather than direction.
    post edited by Jay Tee 4303 - 2014/04/06 13:45:01

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    Jeff Evans
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    Re: Metronome "click track" versus drum track 2014/04/06 18:42:55 (permalink)
    silvercn
    It is certainly apparent from these posts that it is not just a simple matter of starting to record with a preset metronome click track with the idea that you can just replace that with a drum track that fits..


     
    I think you can start with any click and replace the click with any groove as long as the groove and the click are on the same page. That is where the problem can creep in. The reason just dropping a groove in after recording to a click may not work is due to the fact you are not checking how well the groove and the click actually correlate.
     
    You need to be careful as to what Sonar is doing in terms of how hard it is working on its audio side while you are generating a click as well. The click is part of the audio side of the program, remember that. I have found it can shift. Make sure no heavy duty plugins are in operation while you are doing any of this.
     
    In terms of what you can be listening to while recording it depends on who you are and how you prefer to work. For me I actually prefer the single click sound on all crotchet beats. The only thing for me is the sound of the click itself. I like it to be short, clicky and wooden sounding.
     
    I can play drums and keyboard parts perfectly to the just that click sound, timing wise. For drums, playing to drum grooves is not an option for example. In fact I could argue for me the click is best because it is conveying the most information with the least amount of sound doing it. Once I start hearing too much going on in the click sound.groove it could sway what I play.
     
    I am also into things like hearing the click less often like on 1 and 3 maybe only or 2 and 4 or even on beat 1 only! Also hearing the click on the off beats is also interesting to play to. (the and after 1 and 2 etc and so on. If you have wonderful timing yourself it does not matter really.
    post edited by Jeff Evans - 2014/04/06 21:01:38

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    wst3
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    Re: Metronome "click track" versus drum track 2014/04/09 12:54:46 (permalink)
    an observation... I prefer working with a live drummer, but when that's not happening I still prefer a click, specifically the UREI metronome click. I still have a UREI metronome in the rack, but don't use it as much as I used to.
     
    There is just something very precise - to my ears anyway - about those clicks. And I think that's a big part of playing to a click... you need to really know the click sounds.

    The other thing, again to me, is that playing to a click is playing to a metronome, even if there are tempo changes programmed in it is all about precision. Playing to a groove is more fluid, more musical if you will. A live drummer can react to the other players, and I can react to the live drummer. It is a lot different than using a drum library for me.

    Now I am not complaining about drum libraries... I use them all the time because I can not always afford to get a drummer in - and space is cramped when I do - and so on<G>... and sometimes I want to write a very specific drum part.

    But playing along with those tracks just doesn't work for me... go figure!

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    michaelhanson
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    Re: Metronome "click track" versus drum track 2014/04/09 15:03:26 (permalink)
    Hmmm.....to each his own I guess. 
     
    It works best for me with midi drums as my rhythm guide, if I can't have a real drummer record with me.  I like to put a little extra weight into the strums that fall on accent beats and I like to anticipate the rhythmic changes before fills. 
     
    Of course a real drummer is always prefered, as you say, you react to the other player.  If you have played together for a while, you anticipate each other.  A real drummer is not always possible for me.  It doesn't sit well with the wife, kids and dogs late nights and early mornings.

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    silvercn
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    Re: Metronome "click track" versus drum track 2014/04/09 15:07:00 (permalink)
    Forgive my dumb - what is the UREI metronome - is that  a metronome plug in?
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    Jeff Evans
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    Re: Metronome "click track" versus drum track 2014/04/09 17:52:28 (permalink)
    silvercn
    Forgive my dumb - what is the UREI metronome - is that  a metronome plug in?


    I would say it is this rather incredible looking piece of metronome hardware.
     
     
     

    As Bill says it is the sound of the click that is quite important if you are someone who likes playing to a click sound and I agree very much so too. One could probably sample that UREI click sound and place it in the same folder along with the other metronome sounds in your DAW. (Hint Bill)
     
    I am very fussy as to the click sound itself. I am lucky in that the Studio One standard metronome makes a lovely click sound. I prefer it reasonably short and transient and have a slight woody quality to it. It is cool how Logic allows you to shape the click sound with a slider. For drummers a very snappy click is better.
     
    As to groove and being a drummer I can say it is possible to play very precise to the click and be much tighter but one can also relax and play quite loose to it as well. As I mentioned before the click sound does not have to be on every crotchet beat either. That is where a DAW is handy because you can customise your metronome performances. Staying away from beat 1 is cool and so is clicking on the off beat. That requires some practice though so as to not turn the beat around and end up on it instead. A lot of hip hop grooves place the emphasis on the off beat so it is correct in a way to have the metronome on the off beats instead. When the metronome is away from the on beats it tends to make you play a little more relaxed around the on beats too.
    post edited by Jeff Evans - 2014/04/09 18:00:34

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