Mic Pre amp question!!!

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tfabesproductions
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2012/12/06 13:32:00 (permalink)

Mic Pre amp question!!!

Im thinking about getting the MXl v87 for r&b vocals which already has an fet pre amp built into the mic.. right now i am using the m audio fast track interface with 48 phantom power... when i record with my old mic now... it doesnt sound very clear as you can tell its a home recording cuz it doesnt sit in with music well and just stands out no matter how i eq or compress it..... should i get the m audio fire wire 660 interface because it has a pre amp in it? do i need both a mic with pre amp built in it and an interface with pre amp in it or just one or the other?
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    Beagle
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    Re:Mic Pre amp question!!! 2012/12/06 14:00:43 (permalink)
    well, buying a new mic with or without a preamp will not necessarily fix the problem of sounding like it's a "home recording cuz it doesn't sit in the music well."

    that's a matter of "mixing" and it's both an art and a science and it takes good ears and a lot of skill and practice and having people help you learn it doesn't hurt either.

    IF you get this mic it does not require a separate preamp.  you would connect it to the fast track or the firewire device using the LINE input of the soundcard instead of plugging it into the mic pre.

    I had to look the mic up because this is actually the first mic I remember seeing built this way.  personally I would prefer separate pieces to give me more control over the sound, but I'm not saying this mic is bad.
    post edited by Beagle - 2012/12/06 14:01:44

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    The Maillard Reaction
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    Re:Mic Pre amp question!!! 2012/12/06 14:09:04 (permalink)
    Isn't it just a solid state condenser mic?

    I think the MXL v87 is meant to be hooked up to a mic input with the 48vdc switched on.

    I don't see an output spec but many condensers can drive a line input if they have a high SPL max and are placed on a loud source... but the phantom powered ones need the 48vdc on the mic input connector.


    best,
    mike





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    Beagle
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    Re:Mic Pre amp question!!! 2012/12/06 14:22:02 (permalink)
    that was my initial reaction as well, but I searched and according to the MXL website, the v87 has a preamp and an output transformer built into it.

    http://www.mxlmics.com/microphones/studio/V87/
    the "tech specs" tab does not have good output information on it, so I could be wrong about the level of output it provides, but I was going on what the description said about the fet preamp and output transformer to base my supposition.
    post edited by Beagle - 2012/12/06 14:26:16

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    The Maillard Reaction
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    Re:Mic Pre amp question!!! 2012/12/06 14:50:02 (permalink)


    I believe it is safe to say that, nearly, all condenser mics have a preamp built in to them... that's the "active" part... and, in my opinion, all the better ones also have a transformer as well... but many are just electronically balanced.

    Tube and FET circuits are the most common. FET is probably most common. They are usually built with discrete parts. Some of the cheapest mics do use generic iChips which can be FET or otherwise.

    They occasionally differ in how they source power, but the convention seems to be 48vDC a.k.a. phantom power... that's what the phantom power is for.

    I read every thing I could find to see what you are suggesting, I am even assuming that there may be a spec that verifies that a condenser amp can drive a line output. I know my AKG 414s will put out 0dBu on a guitar amp... sometimes i pad it, sometimes I turn down the preamp.

    I think the mic seems like a fairly normal condenser microphone.



    best,
    mike


    #5
    Beagle
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    Re:Mic Pre amp question!!! 2012/12/06 15:07:08 (permalink)
    ok

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    rumleymusic
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    Re:Mic Pre amp question!!! 2012/12/06 15:07:14 (permalink)
    Yes, all condenser mics have circuitry which is also called the "Preamp."  Not to be confused with an external preamp.  

    You will also need an external preamp for proper levels and 48 volts to power this mic.  

    Daniel Rumley
    Rumley Music and Audio Production
    www.rumleymusic.com
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    Beagle
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    Re:Mic Pre amp question!!! 2012/12/06 15:25:22 (permalink)
    I'm not arguing about it, I believe you both.  like I said it was my initial reaction as well. 

    but why does it have an output transformer on it?  what purpose does that serve on a mic going into an external preamp?  the only reason I can think of would be poor design of the circuit to begin with and masking that with an impedance matching transformer.

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    The Maillard Reaction
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    Re:Mic Pre amp question!!! 2012/12/06 15:49:09 (permalink)


    I can't pretend to be able explain it.


    best regards,
    mike


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    rumleymusic
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    Re:Mic Pre amp question!!! 2012/12/06 16:03:43 (permalink)
    Many great mics have an output transformers.   All the classic Neumann's have them including U87 (basically anything with a Uxx), It is for better impedance bridging, isolation, and just provides a beefier sound. 

     Transformer-less mics have been all the rage the past couple decades, but it has led to some pretty stale sounding designs.  The newest trend is to put them back in, if just for the pleasant distortion it adds to the sound.  



    Daniel Rumley
    Rumley Music and Audio Production
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    The Maillard Reaction
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    Re:Mic Pre amp question!!! 2012/12/06 16:13:58 (permalink)
    FWIW, I have since figured out that it's not safe to say that nearly all condenser mics have preamps.

    It's more proper to say that nearly all DC biased condenser microphones, the kind we use in music production, have a preamp that is primarily used to amplify current for the relatively long cable run. I think I assumed it was primarily for voltage gain... but now it seems obvious that the current boost is helpful.

    I'm at a stage where I'm trying not to pretend that I understand impedance real well... so I only know the more obvious things about what the transformer is doing.

    best regards,
    mike


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    wst3
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    Re:Mic Pre amp question!!! 2012/12/06 16:51:25 (permalink)
    Not to further muddy the water, but...

    a transformer can be found at the output of any microphone type (moving magnet, ribbon, condenser, carbon<G>), and it can serve different purposes, from isolation to level shifting to impedance matching.

    a preamplifier is most often found in condenser and ribbon microphones, but it could be found anywhere as well. These preamplifiers are intended to bring the very low output level of a condenser or ribbon element up to nominal microphone level, or in a couple of oddball cases, line level.

    Some DC powered microphones have circuits that look a little like preamplifiers, but they are really just voltage followers, and they are used to buffer impedance mismatches.

    Some DC powered microphones have circuits that look a little like preamplifiers, but they are really line drivers, and they can boost current, or buffer impedance mismatches, or both.

    None of which makes all that big a difference, really... the combination of microphone element, capsule enclosure, active and passive stages all combine to make a microphone sound the way it does.

    Now specifically addressing the active circuit in a microphone - it's there because the microphone would not work without it, and it has little or nothing to do with the external preamplier. And it definitely does not indicate poor design.

    A modern condenser microphone provides a very tiny output. It must be amplified. And some of these elements have an insanely high source impedance, and that must be buffered to prevent the subsequent wiring from swamping it.

    A modern ribbon microphone has an output that is almost the same as other dynamic microphones, but the devil is in the details, and that extra 10 dB to 20 dB right at the capsule can be a devil of a detail!

    Needless to say, the actual output level from a microphone is directly proportional to the air moving in front of it. If you've ever used a TLM-103 you probably discovered that you could use it without an external preamplifier when you stuck it in front of a drum head or loudspeaker.

    Does that help at all?


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