Helpful ReplyMic issue SM58

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audiomyth
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2015/03/31 16:35:15 (permalink)

Mic issue SM58

Hello..
I am using a SM58 dynamic. The audio output is good enough only when the mic input level in the audio interface is set to almost maximum (say 90%, knob equivalent).
At 80% mic input level, I still need to keep the mic at a distance of 5cms from the vocal source.
Between 60-80%, it is no longer singing but shouting.

Can something be done about the mic input level in the interface so that I can record vocals from a distance of around 20cms?
 
I did a bit of web search and found that it could be because of the impedance factor of the mic and the audio interface. But did not find any solution.

Thanks,
Kane


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    bitflipper
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    Re: Mic issue SM58 2015/03/31 18:09:56 (permalink)
    58's are normally pretty hot mics. My guess is that the problem's one of the following: a) the microphone is broken, b) you've got a bad mic cable/connector, or c) the input impedance is too low on your interface.
     
    Make sure phantom power is turned off, and try another mic cable. If it turns out to be (c), or if the interface simply lacks adequate gain because it's, um, crap, then you could invest in a cheap mixer for your initial preamplification and take its output into the interface's line input.


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    Cactus Music
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    Re: Mic issue SM58 2015/03/31 20:06:23 (permalink)
    +1 to what Bit is saying. Especially the bad cables. 
    It would help to know the name of the interface. 

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    audiomyth
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    Re: Mic issue SM58 2015/04/01 00:35:03 (permalink)
    a) mic broken possibility - broken, like physical damage? It is 6 months old and is yet to experience gravity. And phantom power for a dynamic mic?
     
    b) cable/connector - the same brand/same quality cable works slightly better when I connect my guitar to the audio interface. But the original input-output problem still remains. The same quality cables are used in the store itself from where I got them.
     
    c) interface - it is Roland UA33 Tricapture. If it is an impedance issue, is there anything like a transformer that adjusts the impedance variance of the microphone and the audio interface?
     
     
     
     
     
    post edited by audiomyth - 2015/04/01 00:47:22
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    Karyn
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    Re: Mic issue SM58 2015/04/01 07:47:35 (permalink)
    audiomyth 
    b) cable/connector - the same brand/same quality cable works slightly better when I connect my guitar to the audio interface. But the original input-output problem still remains. The same quality cables are used in the store itself from where I got them.

    What connector are you  using at the interface end?  If it's a 1/4" jack (like your guitar connector) there's a good chance you're using a line/instrument level input which would explain the very low level you're getting from the mic.

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    codamedia
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    Re: Mic issue SM58 2015/04/01 10:10:57 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby audiomyth 2015/04/01 13:20:47
    audiomyth
    I am using a SM58 dynamic. The audio output is good enough only when the mic input level in the audio interface is set to almost maximum (say 90%, knob equivalent). At 80% mic input level, I still need to keep the mic at a distance of 5cms from the vocal source. Between 60-80%, it is no longer singing but shouting.



    So many variables here...
    FYI - I always refer to an input level as a trim control... When I say trim, it's the same as you saying "mic input level".
     
    1: As Karyn says above, make sure you are using a proper XLR to XLR quality mic cable, not a 1/4" cable.
     
    2: How powerful is the vocalist. One person shouting could equal another persons normal singing voice. If the voice is not very strong, 20cm is simply too far from the mic - especially a '58 or similar.
     
    3: Why 20cm? A 58' has an exaggerated proximity effect and there comes a point of diminishing return. The distance should be determined by the tone and strength of the singers voice... not a pre determined number.
     
    4: I love a '58, but let's not forget its primary use is a live mic. In a live situation most singers will "eat" these mics and in those cases I find a common area of trim level to be around 10 - 11 o'clock on most mixers. If the singer backed off to 20cm (other than during shouting) the trim would be much higher to accommodate.
     
    5: Not all mixers/pre-amps are attenuated the same amount with the trim control. The reason you have the variable trim control is to adjust it as needed. As long as there is not a lot of noise being introduced, it really doesn't matter how high you have to run the trim.  (EG: I use to use a Roland/Sonar VS100 and had to run those trims really high on everything. I now use a Presonus interface, and all trims are relatively low. Both sound fine & neither is better, it's just the way they were made)
     
    Just my thoughts...
     
    audiomyth
    a) mic broken possibility - broken, like physical damage? It is 6 months old and is yet to experience gravity. And phantom power for a dynamic mic?

    A mic doesn't have to be dropped to be damaged. '58 mics are very robust and it is unlikely the mic is bad, but it could be. As for Phantom power, "BIT" was saying "make sure it is turned OFF".
    post edited by codamedia - 2015/04/01 10:18:04

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    bitflipper
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    Re: Mic issue SM58 2015/04/01 10:47:54 (permalink)
    (d) what Karyn said
     
    Yes, there are impedance-matching transformers and active impedance-matching amplifiers, but they should not be necessary for a dynamic microphone unless you've got very long (> 100') cable runs.


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    Cactus Music
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    Re: Mic issue SM58 2015/04/01 11:09:38 (permalink)

     
    It's very possible that this unit might have under speced pre amps and turning it up to 9 is actually where it belongs. Notice there is no pad. 
     

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    AT
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    Re: Mic issue SM58 2015/04/01 12:41:54 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby mettelus 2015/04/02 08:15:13
    8-10 inches is pretty far for some voices on a dynamic mike.  If you are using a proper mic cable, then try closing up on the mike some.  At a foot away a 58 would probably sound pretty thin, but I use them mostly for live applications.  And I don't know how much gain the Tri-capture has.  The VS series had solid preamps, but the Tri is older, I believe.  If it has less than 60 dB of gain at a foot with a less powerful voice you are likely to have problems with pick up.  Simply close the distance but watch out for the proximity effect.

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    audiomyth
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    Re: Mic issue SM58 2015/04/01 12:43:46 (permalink)
    Cable: XLR to XLR
    Phantom: off
    I just need a comfortable distance (around 20cms appeared to be so) because I prefer to play the keyboard and record voice simultaneously. But I do get your point that 20cms is slightly too much to ask for with my present set-up.

    But I think I will give a try to the option of impedance-matching transformers. After trying it, I will update here.

    Thanks @ Bit, Johnny, Karyn, Coda & AT.....

    Regards,
    Kane


    post edited by audiomyth - 2015/04/01 13:18:29
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    tlw
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    Re: Mic issue SM58 2015/04/01 14:56:39 (permalink)
    Assuming the SM58 is the commonplace standard model that's low impedance (uses XLR-XLR cable and probably has "LowZ" written on it somewhere) I doubt there's an impedance mismatch unless you're trying to use an XLR-jack cable in which case you need an XLR-XLR. If youy use an impedance matching transformer to turn a LowZ mic into a high Z and plug it into an instrument/line level input you might well find you get even less gain than you already have. Instrument inputs usually have less gain than mic channels.
     
    The Tri-capture doesn't have much gain at the mic preamp and the SM58 isn't really meant to be used at the kind of distance you're looking for. About half that is really the maximum. An SM57, which is basically the same capsule in a different shell, has difficulty with a guitar cab or brass instrument at 20cm. I use one live on a diatonic accordian and need it no more than 10 cm away from the instrument to get a strong enough signal at the mixer and believe me, you wouldn't want to try and sing louder than the accordion is at 8 inches (or a guitar cab). Live, singers like the SM58 because it is pretty feedback proof and by working in the range where lips almost contact out to around 10cm you can manipulate the bass response of the mic by simply moving it.
     
    I'd suggest either getting the distance to the mic down using a boom stand or considering a more sensitive condensor mic or maybe a preamp to boost the mic to line level then run that into the Tri-capture.

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    YouDontHasToCallMeJohnson
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    Re: Mic issue SM58 2015/04/01 17:54:29 (permalink)
    The Taming of the Shure
    http://www.recordingmag.com/resources/resourceDetail/330.html
    Shure SM57 Impedance Modification
    A simple gizmo makes a big difference
    By Paul Stamler
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    mettelus
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    Re: Mic issue SM58 2015/04/01 18:02:40 (permalink)
    That is a very well written article.

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    AT
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    Re: Mic issue SM58 2015/04/02 00:36:54 (permalink)
    Cloudlifter? 
     
    This might also be the case for one of those ART MP units - the "tube" preamp.  I forget the gain but it is likely to be greater than the Tri-capture.  It ain't great and the tube will go all pillowy if you drive it, but it is only $50.

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    mettelus
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    Re: Mic issue SM58 2015/04/02 08:19:12 (permalink)
    As AT said, the distance is more likely the real issue IMO, since one of the biggest advantages of a dynamic mic is the reduction in the environmental input. Unless you have a powerful voice, 20cms isn't going to "cut it" to get the levels you are asking. A side note here is that with 24-bit recording, you don't need it "high" anyway as long as the S/N is good (this point depends on application).
     
    A good mic stand with a locking boom may be a better path to pursue. Even watching popular pianists with powerful voices, their distance from the mic many times it actually touching it. Something to consider anyway.

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    Cactus Music
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    Re: Mic issue SM58 2015/04/03 10:14:33 (permalink)
    I had a client who just was all over the place and often distorting on a standard LDC so I grabbed my Beta 58 and told him to stay right on it. I put a cheepo wind sock on it. I got a surprisingly good performance and actually liked the sound better than the LDC ( AT2020) for this person. Each singer may need a different mike. Beta 58's are worth using. Plain SM 58 are not what I'd ever use for recording. They have no clarity. 

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    YouDontHasToCallMeJohnson
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    Re: Mic issue SM58 2015/04/03 13:18:13 (permalink)
    Cactus Music
    Plain SM 58 are not what I'd ever use for recording. They have no clarity. 




    Read this article about impedance matching for sm 57/58 mics:
     
    The Taming of the Shure
    http://www.recordingmag.com/resources/resourceDetail/330.html
    Shure SM57 Impedance Modification
    A simple gizmo makes a big difference
    By Paul Stamler
     
    ""The differences were clearly audible...  At 2k the sound was bright and ill-differentiated, almost like bursts of pure white noise, and quite unpleasant. At 500 ohms, however, it was like we’d plugged in a different microphone. While the sound was still brightish, it had much more detail, and the wash of hiss was replaced by the sheen characteristic of real cymbals.""
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    mudgel
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    Re: Mic issue SM58 2015/04/04 04:16:58 (permalink)
    I've looked up the specs for the unit above:
    Nominal Input level
    Mic input: -60 to -30 dBu
    Guitar input: -25 dBu
    Line input: -10 dBu

    Shure SM58
    Sensitivity: –54.5 dBV/Pa (1.85 mV) 1Pa=94dBSPL

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    audiomyth
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    Re: Mic issue SM58 2015/04/08 03:36:26 (permalink)
    Thanks again guys. Learned a lot from your inputs. I'll try out the feasible options and see how it works out. And will update here so that it can help others in the future.
     
    Regards,
    Kane
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