Mic'n guitar cab?

I'm a guitar tone chaser by nature.  I've been searching for my "holy grail" guitar tone for many years.  My live tone is now very close to what I hear in my "minds ear."  I'm happy with my live tone.  Now, the trick is to get that tone recorded.
 
I've got a half way decent collection of mics that I can use to record my tone.
 
Mics:  2 SM57's
Senn e609
Senn e906
Senn 421
Heil PR30
Royer 121 ribbon
Senn 421.
 
I've tried every imaginable combination of the above mics.  I've gotten the best results by using a Senn 421 on one speaker of my 4x12 cab and a SM57 on another speaker in the same cab.  The mics are positioned identically about an inch and a half away from the grill and aimed directly at the point where the dust cap meets the speaker cone.
 
I generally like the recorded tone I'm getting, however, I struggle to get a good thick mid-mid tone.  There's plenty of bass (I use a hi-pass at 85) and there's plenty of highs.  There just doesn't seem to be enough of the mid "vocal" frequencies.  It's almost as if I've scooped out the mids at the amp, but, that's not the case.  I have plenty of mids coming from the live rig...it sounds great in the room.  I just can't seem to get that great sound on "tape."
 
Of course, I've moved the mics all around and have tried countless different positions...close, but no cigar.
 
Any tips would be greatly appreciated.

i use a palmer pdi-09.

i've posted a bunch about it in the past, a quick search should work....

i've been micing tube amps and cabinets since about 1978

batsbrew


i use a palmer pdi-09.

i've posted a bunch about it in the past, a quick search should work....

i've been micing tube amps and cabinets since about 1978

First...thanks so much for your input.
 
My current recorded tone is just "OK," but it sounds much better than the attempts I've made with my pdi-09.  The thing is, I've come along way toward getting "my" tone and getting it recorded...BUT...it just isn't there yet.  For me, the pdi-09 is a step in the wrong direction.
 
Again, thanks for the input.

amiller-

what is your rig?

and

what kind of tone are you looking for?

examples?
clips?

yep.
my guess is, you base your 'sound' on how it arrives in your ear in a good sounding room.

question:

if you get down on your knees, right in front of your cabinet, and put your ear about a foot away from the speaker, is that your sound?

because that's what the mic is hearing.

yea, what jeff said.



i mic at the edge of the cone, almost never in the center.

i also rotate the mic off axis, about .75" away from the edge of the cone, at about a 30 degree angle, with the element towards the center of the speaker..
then, slowly, i shift the mic, locked into it's angle, a little bit closer to the center of the speaker.

i may do this 10 times or more, before i find the sweet spot.
the EQ i want, for that particular track.


making miniscule changes in the location of the mic, is all you should ever need to dial in your tone.

the trick is, to have the patience, and be able to shift that sucker as many times as it takes.

it really helps, and in fact, is absolutely necessary, to have someone else shift the mic for you, and to be in a completely different room/location than the cabinet (ultimatly, a real studio with a sound-treated control room, and you are hearing what the mic is hearing thru your monitors.

anything less than that, is a compromise, and you are just guessing at what you are getting.

Try blending with a room mix too. That room mic might capture the full sound better, then blend with your close mic. Also consider multiple close mics and blend to taste. A few different mics can capture different parts of the sound you want and when you combine, they total the complete sound.

Further more, try backing off the distortion. For recording, you almost always require less distortion for it to sound distorted.

Consider layering multiple takes.

Understand this takes TIME and lots of TIME to nail it.

Finally, read this:

http://www.badmuckingfastard.com/sound/slipperman.html

Highly popular thread on getting the perfect recorded guitar sound. It's long, but it's good.

What Jeff and Batbrew have described are pretty dead on to what I do while possitioning the mic on my 4-10 cabinet.  I have settled into a particular speaker and about mid way between the center and edge of the cone, at a slight angle, 30 degrees sounds about right.  I almost always revert back to the SM57,  I guess it is just what I am used to hearing for a mic.

It took a lot of trial and error to find the sweet spot and is really hard to do while tracking in the same room with the amp.  The loudness of the amp can over power what you are hearing in the headphones.  I spent a hole day one time tracking each speaker until I found the speaker that sounded the best to me.  I would track each speaker and make notes as to which one it was.  Take a break and come back later to listen to them with fresh ears.  From the notes and the soloed track, I would determine which speaker gave me more the sound I was looking for.  Once settled in on that, I went throught the same exercise with mic position.  It is funny how the littlest movement from side to side, front to back, and angle can actually make a lot of difference.  Once you find it, you can get there again relatively quickly knowing about where to start from. 

maximumpower


Since you are using a Koko Boost (BTW I want one) and a Mesa and 4x12 cab, I assume you are going for heavier tones?

I thought this video was interesting (and long) http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3176975091479283638

Good luck!

No, not really going for heavier tones actually.  The MESA Lonestar is a pretty low gain amp...that's why I got the Koko Boost (I love it).  I'm more into Andy Timmons and Stephen Schackinger tones.
 
Yep, I have seen that video before as well as read the artile your second link points to.

amiller


My current recording rig and recording signal path is as follows: LP -> Suhr Koko Boost ->  MESA Lonestar -> Marshall 4x12 cab loaded with two Greenbacks and two Alnico Golds -> SM57 and Senn 421 on the Golds (of course) -> MOTU MKII -> Sonar. 
 

Why "of course"?  When you're playing live you hear both the golds AND the greenbacks, so why only record the golds?
 
There are cheap speakers and expensive speakers, but there is no such thing as a good or bad speaker (excluding broken speakers...). Different speakers have different uses and have different sounds.  If your live sound uses both, then you need to record both.

You may find the mids you're missing from the recorded sound are being produced by the greenbacks...

Just curious - have you tried using multiple mics on a single speaker as opposed to a single mic on multiple speakers? And the comment(s) about the room sound has merit too. check this out http://royerlabs.com/devildriver.html

http://royerlabs.com/devildriver.html

 
Wow, I stand corrected...I haven't seen those pics.  I have those mics and will give that a try.  I'm very curious to hear how that setup sounds...thanks.  http://royerlabs.com/devildriver.html
 

take the windscreen off of the 58, and then compare them.