jbow
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Microphone phase issue question
When recording an acoustic guitar with two mics, if I understand correctly, there wil be a phase problem if two mics are used but are not the same distance from the source... unless one of the mics is more than 3x the distance from the source than the closer mic. I can easily put one close and the other more than 3x the distance of mic one BUT... my question (assuming I have a correct understanding above) is this: Will I have potential phase problems if I record two mono tracks with one mic going to each of two tracks or will I have a potential phase problems only if I record a stereo track with one mic to each side? Also... what will a phase problem sound like, is is a latency between the two sources or a modulation effect or what? Thanks, Julien
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Microphone phase issue question
2011/10/03 16:56:47
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The phase problems occur where the blending occurs. If it's going to happen it happens right where you blend them. If you do dual mono, or stereo tracks and output two tracks then the blending occurs in the air. If you collapse to mono electronically, or with digital mathematics then the blending occurs there. Many multi mic recordings of acoustic guitars, technically speaking, exhibit imperfections caused by phase cancellation... but the overall effect makes it a non issue. Personally I've grown to like using one good mic about 3 feet back... but there is a 40 year legacy of sticking mics all around acoustic guitars and dialing up personal "recorded guitar" tones and learning the techniques seems useful. Try out stuff and monitor it in mono... if it doesn't sound *phasy* in a bad way... then you are good to go... feel free to sculpt the tone to your taste. best regards, mike
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jbow
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Re:Microphone phase issue question
2011/10/03 20:33:45
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Thanks for the answer Mr. McCue. In other words... I shouldn't worry about it. That sound's good to me! Julien
Sonar Platinum Studiocat Pro 16G RAM (some bells and whistles) HP Pavilion dm4 1165-dx (i5)-8G RAM Octa-Capture KRK Rokit-8s MIDI keyboards... Control Pad mics. I HATE THIS CMPUTER KEYBARD!
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Microphone phase issue question
2011/10/03 20:49:09
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Well, I guess what I meant is that you should be aware of it and that problems will be so obvious once you try to mix the mics... that you just move the mics around and listen and figure out a good place. If it sounds ok then you shouldn't worry to much about the last few percent. best, mike
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bitflipper
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Re:Microphone phase issue question
2011/10/03 21:56:13
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Will I have potential phase problems if I record two mono tracks with one mic going to each of two tracks or will I have a potential phase problems only if I record a stereo track with one mic to each side? Six of one, half a dozen of another...whether separate mono tracks or a stereo track (which is effectively two separate mono tracks), eventually the two signals will meet, even if it's in the air when somebody plays it back on their car stereo. When they do, there will be comb filtering and the guitar will sound thin and amateurish. As long your listeners always use headphones, you'd be all right!
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jbow
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Re:Microphone phase issue question
2011/10/04 09:37:08
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I think I will stick with one mic for now. Thanks! Julien
Sonar Platinum Studiocat Pro 16G RAM (some bells and whistles) HP Pavilion dm4 1165-dx (i5)-8G RAM Octa-Capture KRK Rokit-8s MIDI keyboards... Control Pad mics. I HATE THIS CMPUTER KEYBARD!
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SilverfoxUK
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Re:Microphone phase issue question
2011/10/04 10:38:23
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jbow I think I will stick with one mic for now. Thanks! Julien Hi Jbow, Something you may want to check out. Not sure if you have the Craig Anderton X1 video? He shows this brilliant technique whereby you record say a acoustic guitar with one mic, then clone the track 3 times. Then with the 3 tracks you: pan one left one center and one right. Then EQ the left one with a low pass filter Roll off high and low on the center and Hi pass the right track. BOOM. Instant stereo guitar with NO phase issues. And I tell you what, you will be surprised with how good it sounds once you have the blend between the tracks and the EQ right. For me it was a revelation.
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bitflipper
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Re:Microphone phase issue question
2011/10/04 10:44:58
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Another trick along the same lines is to use a graphic equalizer on the left and right copies. You use a graphic, rather than a parametric, EQ because it's easy to set up mirror images. Still no substitute for double-tracking, though, but if you do use it on double-tracked guitars it can make up for not having two different guitars to do it with.
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Rick O Shay
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Re:Microphone phase issue question
2011/10/04 20:47:26
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If using multiple mics, record each mic to a separate track. Then you have the option of: Reversing the phase of one of the tracks. Insert a plug-in on one of the tracks that allows you to change the phase from 0-180 degrees and see where it sounds best. Zoom into both waveforms and line them up. One of these techniques or a combination of them will get you what you want.
post edited by Rick O Shay - 2011/10/04 20:49:16
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jbow
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Re:Microphone phase issue question
2011/10/04 21:33:55
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He shows this brilliant technique whereby you record say a acoustic guitar with one mic, then clone the track 3 times. You know I did see that and I completely forgot about it. I need to watch the whole vid again I think. Thanks.. and thanks Bitflipper I will stick with one mic for now and try this trick. I'm sure either will work well. Julien
Sonar Platinum Studiocat Pro 16G RAM (some bells and whistles) HP Pavilion dm4 1165-dx (i5)-8G RAM Octa-Capture KRK Rokit-8s MIDI keyboards... Control Pad mics. I HATE THIS CMPUTER KEYBARD!
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re:Microphone phase issue question
2011/10/05 06:12:16
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If you've got a pair of matched ribbons, you could try setting them up as a Blumlein pair and recording them to either 2 mono tracks or a single stereo track. This technique avoids phasing/comb filtering 100% of the time.
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Microphone phase issue question
2011/10/05 08:25:21
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Hey Julien, don't give up on multi mic.... just try it. I prefer the single or X/Y mic choices... simply because I like that style of singular sound. You should give your self the opportunity to work with a few mics and mix them together... you can always just use the one you like and throw the other tracks away... or you may find something you really enjoy. Don't be shy about it!!!! all the best, mike
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drewfx1
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Re:Microphone phase issue question
2011/10/05 11:52:36
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Rick O Shay If using multiple mics, record each mic to a separate track. Then you have the option of: Reversing the phase of one of the tracks. Insert a plug-in on one of the tracks that allows you to change the phase from 0-180 degrees and see where it sounds best. Zoom into both waveforms and line them up. One of these techniques or a combination of them will get you what you want. ^This. Moving one mic closer or further from the sound source than the other is essentially the same as delaying one track a small amount compared to the other. Based on the speed of sound, the time difference is roughly 1ms/foot, so if one mic is 6 inches further away than the other, delaying the closer mic's track by ~.5ms will put them in phase. So if you record to 2 tracks, you can just put the mic's where you want and deal with the phase issues later.
In order, then, to discover the limit of deepest tones, it is necessary not only to produce very violent agitations in the air but to give these the form of simple pendular vibrations. - Hermann von Helmholtz, predicting the role of the electric bassist in 1877.
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feedback50
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Re:Microphone phase issue question
2011/10/05 15:16:57
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In honor of mailman-Cliff from the old Cheers TV show .... Signal mixing also takes place in the brain (as well as the air). If you run two oscillators at the same frequency through separate stereo speakers and then detune one oscillator slightly you should hear a beat-frequency as the two sounds add and subtract from each other due to mixing in the air. The beat frequency should be at the rate of the difference of the two frequencies. However if you take those same signals and run them into headphones (each oscillator panned hard to individual side channels) you will still hear the beat frequency, as the two signals combine in the brain (no air-mixing involved).
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