Vokalzz
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Mics??
Ive got a shure Beta 58. I like it, but don't have much experience with other mics. I'm thinking about getting a mic pre. Or a different mic altogether. Either one or the other as my budget is not big. What do you guys think? Should I stick with the beta 58 and go for a good 500-600$ pre? What good/reasonably inexpensive set ups do you gentleman like/prefer? Has anyone used a 58 before and has more experience with other mics. Input would be really helpful in making a decision. Forgot to mention, my style is more along the lines of... Breakinng bennjamin, chevelle, tool, mixed with a more metal aspect like August burns red. However, my voice is a little higher in range then the bands listed. Thanks again cakewalk recording gurus!!
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gswitz
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Re: Mics??
2013/08/05 20:30:10
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☄ Helpfulby Vokalzz 2013/08/06 02:05:27
I like my 57 and 58. For 600 you can get a mic and a pre.
StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen. I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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chuckebaby
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Re: Mics??
2013/08/05 20:45:45
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☄ Helpfulby Vokalzz 2013/08/06 02:05:24
what will you be using this mic for, genral purpose ? voicals ? guitars ? the sm58 is great for many things, I myself use aRode NT1000 phantom powered mic for my vox and stringed inst. its got a great warm sound and is very powerful.
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cparmerlee
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Re: Mics??
2013/08/05 21:53:20
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☄ Helpfulby Vokalzz 2013/08/06 02:05:22
I picked up a few MXL 603S pencil condensers recently to use for PA, but I have been surprised at how good they sound on recording. You can pretty easily find a pair of these with nice case and great shock mounts for $150. That's a real price performer. I haven't tried them on vocals. You'd probably want something higher end than that, but they work well on wind instruments. They are way better than Samson and Behringer mics that look similar, and really not much more money. I like the Rode NT4s a lot. That's a stereo mic that is good for covering small choirs or other small ensembles where you really don't want to mic every voice independently.
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Vokalzz
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Honestly Im using this mic basically for guitars and vocals. I use a electronic set (as a midi controller) and superior drummer for percussion. Then for bass I just direct in and use pod farm 2 so I can emulate bass tones and fit what is better as I go. If I use any peripherals, I have a mico korg with sounds in it or use it as a controller and use plug ins that come with sonar. I will prob be micing things individually, in mono. I just dont know if it would be better to get a new mic, or a good pre. I guess really I just dont have enough experience with better mics and have limited knowledge when it comes to pre amps. Would there really be a (big) difference in tone/clarity/performance then another higher end mic. Again, based on the influences I listed in my original post. Or, would there be more of a change in tone/clarity/performance if I just got a pre??
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Featherlight
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Re: Mics??
2013/08/06 14:33:15
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☄ Helpfulby Vokalzz 2013/08/06 18:43:32
Vokalzz, I hear ya man, when I started in recording as a intern for a small LA studio, it was a bit of a mystery for me as well but I learned some things that have really helpful along the way. First, it might be easier to think of Mics as simply tools for a specific purpose and the Mic Pre's as one of two kinds:
1. one that alter the sound or add color to the mic or, 2. ones that faithfully represent the Mic.
They both have their place and many of the pre amps that come in decent quality computer interfaces are not that much different than in stand alone pre amps. ( MOTU, RME, ECHO, ect )
So the lesson here is start with the right tool ( Mic ) and get better pre amps as you can afford them. Mics like an SM57 or 58 ( and Beta ) are dynamic mics so while they are great for some jobs ( 57 on drums and guitar cabs is the studio standard ) they dont produce the detail that a higher end condenser mic will on say vocals or acoustic instruments and cymbals. I dont want to over simplify here cause there are always exceptions to the rules but here is a quick breakdown of what Mic's we use daily in a metal session:
Vocals: SM58 ( yep that's right ) or more often SM7B ( most of the modern rock/Metal stuff is cut with this Mic ). Both are dynamic and can take a lot of level and crazy range without breaking up. Sometimes on softer sections we will switch to a AT 4050 or a KSM44 for more detail and clarity.
Acoustic guit: 2x SM81 in a stereo pair or for mono tracks, just one angled at the 12th fret in towards the sound hole with the High Pass on. For brighter tracks sometime the AKG C451 or the C1000s for a cheaper alternative that dosn't suck.
Guitar Cabs: SM57, the old standard and probably the best desert Island Mic on earth. Sometimes the Sennheiser 906 for the additional pad options.
Drums: Kick, beta 52 or the Audix D6 period. Toms, Audix D2 on the Racks and MD 421 on the floors or the Beta 52 as well. Snare, SM57 top and bottom, sometimes the Shure SM56 on the top for more snap. Overheads, 2x SM81 or AKG C451s.
If I had to do a Rock/Metal session with only 2 mics and had under 500 hundred to spend, I would probably choose:
1. SM57 ( 95.00 anywhere ) Can Mic almost any cab ( bass or guitar ) and can be used for vocals as well as a lot of percussion and other instruments.
2. Studio Projects C1 ( 249.00 and sounds like a pre EQ'ed U87 ). Best condenser for under 400 bucks on the planet...with the possible exception of the ADK Thor but that IS 400. bucks. The C1 is Killer on vocals, acoustic guitar, acoustic anything with the pad engaged and takes a crap load of input before it breaks up. A lot of the MXL, AKG Preception Series, and Marshall stuff out there was patterned after this Mic. The company was bought out by PMI and the Mic is still made and labeled the C1.
Unless the Mic pre's in your audio interface really suck ( Line 6 UX series, ect ) you wont be improving your overall sound enough to warrant the expense. With that price range, you wont be able to afford the Mic Pre's that would really make an audible difference ( Avalon, Universal Audio, Neve, Chandler, Chameleon Labs, ect ) so spend your money on tools that will, better Mics.
YMMV, hope this helps
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brconflict
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Re: Mics??
2013/08/06 15:39:21
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☄ Helpfulby Vokalzz 2013/08/06 18:43:33
If you're happy with the mic, you might check out a tube pre, but try one like the Summit 2BA-221, which can go as clean or warm as you'd like in most cases. The GAP-Pre73 is good if you want more of a transformer-esq Neve-type sound. Otherwise, if you're leaning toward the mic choices, from your indications, if your voice is high and loud, an SM-7 is great. Conversely, if your voice is high and quiet (or not quite as loud), I dig the Avantone cv12 tube mic. I performed a shootout with the cv12 to an AKG c12 from Blackbird studio. The cv12 performed REALLY well when compared to the c12.
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Vokalzz
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Feather, that was a hell of a response, and thank you to all who have been giving me their input. I was thinking now that I will go with a sm57, so I can track my cabs. Done deal. Now as far as a vocal mic. Hmm! Brconflick recommended the Avantone cv12. Every review Ive read says its solid. Anyone own this mic and can testify? Because that is within my price range. I was reading online that the C1 was a good back up mic. Feather what type of vocals have you done with this mic. Its within my price range and with some money left over to dump into other things I need for the studio. However, would it really be far off from the beta 58 as a lead mic. I know the 58 has a range from 50-1600. The C1 is 20-20,000. Which seems fair among other style mics. Would it be better just to part ways with the 58 and move forward. This is where im at. Again, I know this is all just based off opinion and everyone has different thoughts. However, that is what im looking for. Added note: I do metal type stuff, but with a lot of actual singing in it. Think of the lead singer from 30 seconds to mars, with screaming and more tech riffs other then just mindless strumming. Depth/variety within the songs. I can post a ruff recording of some new ideas ive had if anyone wants to get an idea of stuff ive been working on the past week. Not mixed or mastered. optional, not necessary. Moving forward. Or I can keep the beta 58 for screams, stuff like that, more punchy things, then get a good lead mic and use the 57 for cabs. I really wont be recording drums as I have a electric kit using superior drummer, So drum mics are not relevant at this point in time. Thanks again everyone. I really appreciate how people are attentive to detail and willing to go out of their way to share knowledge. I feel welcomed on this site. Peace
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Vokalzz
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Feather, that was a hell of a response, and thank you to all who have been giving me their input. I was thinking now that I will go with a sm57, so I can track my cabs. Done deal. Now as far as a vocal mic. Hmm! Brconflick recommended the Avantone cv12. Every review Ive read says its solid. Anyone own this mic and can testify? Because that is within my price range. I was reading online that the C1 was a good back up mic. Feather what type of vocals have you done with this mic. Its within my price range and with some money left over to dump into other things I need for the studio. However, would it really be far off from the beta 58 as a lead mic. I know the 58 has a range from 50-1600. The C1 is 20-20,000. Which seems fair among other style mics. Would it be better just to part ways with the 58 and move forward. This is where im at. Again, I know this is all just based off opinion and everyone has different thoughts. However, that is what im looking for. Added note: I do metal type stuff, but with a lot of actual singing in it. Think of the lead singer from 30 seconds to mars, with screaming and more tech riffs other then just mindless strumming. Depth/variety within the songs. I can post a ruff recording of some new ideas ive had if anyone wants to get an idea of stuff ive been working on the past week. Not mixed or mastered. optional, not necessary. Moving forward. Or I can keep the beta 58 for screams, stuff like that, more punchy things, then get a good lead mic and use the 57 for cabs. I really wont be recording drums as I have a electric kit using superior drummer, So drum mics are not relevant at this point in time. Thanks again everyone. I really appreciate how people are attentive to detail and willing to go out of their way to share knowledge. I feel welcomed on this site. Peace
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Vokalzz
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Feather, that was a hell of a response, and thank you to all who have been giving me their input. I was thinking now that I will go with a sm57, so I can track my cabs. Done deal. Now as far as a vocal mic. Hmm! Brconflick recommended the Avantone cv12. Every review Ive read says its solid. Anyone own this mic and can testify? Because that is within my price range. I was reading online that the C1 was a good back up mic. Feather what type of vocals have you done with this mic. Its within my price range and with some money left over to dump into other things I need for the studio. However, would it really be far off from the beta 58 as a lead mic. I know the 58 has a range from 50-1600. The C1 is 20-20,000. Which seems fair among other style mics. Would it be better just to part ways with the 58 and move forward. This is where im at. Again, I know this is all just based off opinion and everyone has different thoughts. However, that is what im looking for. Added note: I do metal type stuff, but with a lot of actual singing in it. Think of the lead singer from 30 seconds to mars, with screaming and more tech riffs other then just mindless strumming. Depth/variety within the songs. I can post a ruff recording of some new ideas ive had if anyone wants to get an idea of stuff ive been working on the past week. Not mixed or mastered. optional, not necessary. Moving forward. Or I can keep the beta 58 for screams, stuff like that, more punchy things, then get a good lead mic and use the 57 for cabs. I really wont be recording drums as I have a electric kit using superior drummer, So drum mics are not relevant at this point in time. Thanks again everyone. I really appreciate how people are attentive to detail and willing to go out of their way to share knowledge. I feel welcomed on this site. Peace
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sethmopod
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This is a very tough question to answer. It seems like you're at the start of your journey and you have a long way to go yet. I wish you the best - it's exciting and frustrating all at once. I think my best buy along the way has to be an AKG C414 B-ULS. If you watch e-bay, you can get one in the $500 range. It's leaps away from any budget condenser I've ever come across and will complement your 58. It's very much a swiss army kind of mic. There are some things it's absolutely fantastic on, and there's virtually nothing that it's bad on. I've added a lot of things to my mic & preamp closet before and since getting a pair of those, but nothing else I have is so flexible and consistently great sounding.
Seth
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sethmopod
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On rereading your earlier post - If you don't have an SM57 yet, get one of those first. It's a basic tool that everyone should have. If you can help it keep the 58 too.
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AT
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somehow my earlier post got lost. Basically, it is mic then pre. A solid pre will help any mic, but if the mic ain't working for you to start with it won't help. I'd look at a new mic first. Guitar cab is a 57 for rock hard stuff or a ribbon for a mellower sound (can still sound nasty, but more of a vintage thing). I've been using the mxl 141 or whatever lately here at home. Sub $100 and it sounds really nice tone wise, but I imagine metal would be captured better by a 57. And vocals are always a personal thing. Each mic is a little different and each voice more so and ear, too. I can't really offer a suggestion other than an large diameter condenser is usual on voice except for the smb7, which gets used a lot. there are too many mics and the choice is too personal. IF you could spring for $1000 and a bock fet you would have a great all purpose mic. pres help a lot, expecially w/ the smb7 which needs a lot of gain. the warm audio or new tone beast are great preamps, price or not. The isa one or gap are both good transformer preamps which will give plenty of gain. The warm isa and gap are all about $400 while the tone beast has different transformers as well as op-amps available inline and is very flexible as well as solid at $600. Prices go up from there and you get a little more umph, but any of those should work and you'll keep even if you can afford a vintage neve. Transformers are the key, imho, adding a certain roundness to digital recording if you grew up listening to older, analog recordings. And a good transformer (just one) costs like $75, and most of the high-end preamps have at least 2 (in and out). But mic first - a good preamp will enhance that sound and give you more mic'ing possibilities and overs, etc. better. @
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Vokalzz
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Thank you guys a lot. Your answers have helped me a lot. Between this site and individual research, I think Ive gained tuns of knowledge within the past couple of days. I think at this point I will get a MXL V67. Its a cheaper condenser mic, but with high recommendations as far as quality for price. I feel as I can get to know condenser mics a little better before I invest tuns of money on one. However, I really like the KSM32. Looks beautiful and heard price/quality you cant beat.
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Bule
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Vokalzz Thank you guys a lot. Your answers have helped me a lot. Between this site and individual research, I think Ive gained tuns of knowledge within the past couple of days. I think at this point I will get a MXL V67. Its a cheaper condenser mic, but with high recommendations as far as quality for price. I feel as I can get to know condenser mics a little better before I invest tuns of money on one. However, I really like the KSM32. Looks beautiful and heard price/quality you cant beat.
AT Transformers are the key, imho, adding a certain roundness to digital recording if you grew up listening to older, analog recordings. And a good transformer (just one) costs like $75, and most of the high-end preamps have at least 2 (in and out).
It's more rare to see output trannies but yes that and tubes are the biggie in high end Mic Pres and the Jensen line is at the top of the list for current production input transformers which are the heart of the mix. The output trannies are more for coupling and noise reduction which can be a problem when using tube based Mic Preamps. Most of the really good designs use Cascode Duo-Triode setups like on the Jensen website for a big punchy power linear sound. The Mic has everything to do with it and is just so subjective but if you read enough reviews it will narrow the choice down for you a bit. Vokalzz if you get the condenser mic do be aware that you will need 48vdc of phantom power to operate it with and many mics don't come with a supply but almost all mic preamps and interfaces do. Just fyi.
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Vokalzz
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Update: I did get the MXL V67 for vocals and....Here it comes.... The Seinnheiser E609 instead of the sm57 for cab recording. . I know people might call me crazy but I really like the fullness of the E609. Though the 57 might be industry standard, I think it has a little to much high end for what im doing. Great for other applications, but for a rich deep clear heavy hard rock/metal, the E609 was the winner. When I heard the 57 on distorted electric guitar, it seemed very fuzzy in the high end, As the E609 did not have all that fuzz. The E609 was warmer, but maybe not as rich in the higher mids. Nothing a little EQ cant take care of. Bule, I appreciate your feedback, I do know what phantom power is mainly used for and have a phantom power button on my audio interface to power it up. I will experiment with these two mics and go from there. You guys Fu(k!n& rock! Please, if anyone uses other combinations and would like to share their thoughts please fill us in on what works for you. This is an extremely interesting topic, (at least for me). Thanks all..
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gswitz
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How cool! I have an old MXL V63M and MXL V69 Mogami Edition which I have loved and loved and loved. I hope you love your tube mic. I don't want to scare you or anything, but I had a hard time using the V69 direct into my M-Audio Fasttrack Ultra. It would make tube noise that was obvious and apparent. I changed tubes all the time but I could pretty much always get so much noise it was a problem, so I stopped using the Mic. I will say that eventually the pre-amps completely burned out on the front inputs on the Fasttrack to the point that they aren't usable. I haven't gone back to try to recreate the problem with the fasttrack. I've had the MXL V69 in heavy use since the fall of 2012 with no probs. So, if you get the mic and crank your input gain and hear crackle, don't despair... come to the forum and troubleshoot. This is the type of thread I found and had agreement with when I had the mismatch between the mic and my gear. I wonder now if the problem was with my Phantom Power being on... No idea... http://homerecording.com/bbs/equipment-forums/microphones/marshall-v69-problems-anyone-else-148884/ **Phantom power** When you use the power supply that comes with the MXL V67, you don't want to use Phantom Power. It is not necessary.
post edited by gswitz - 2013/08/08 23:49:09
StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen. I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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Living Room Rocker
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gswitz
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Living Room Rocker, doesn't it take an admin to move a thread once created? I don't think the OP can change it, even if he wanted to.
StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen. I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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