Mics--more than meets the eye

Hi, all,

I had a very interesting and informative experience today and I thought I'd share it with you guys----especially all of you who are basically newbies to the finer points of recording, like myself.

I had a friend/band mate of mine record some alto sax parts for my most recent song. He has an AKG C414 (older one), but he wanted to try my Rode NT2 (original, not the NT2A) on his sax. So, both mics were set up as close to the "sweet spot" of the sax as possible and the sax parts were recorded onto separate tracks through the two mics.

All I can say is, wow, what an interesting experiment this turned out to be. The sax player, who is a *very* accomplished player, much to my surprise preferred the sound of my NT2 to his beautiful old 414.

I, on the other hand, *much* prefer the sound of the 414, especially for the specific track these sax parts are going on.

But, because the sax player preferred the NT2, and I totally respect his opinion, I set out to try to mix the NT2 tracks into the project. The project is a song that is very dark and atmospheric and meditative and I found the sound of the alto sax through my NT2 to be way too bright. I couldn't make the sax sit in the mix no matter what I tried. (Oh, I forgot to mention: This is the first time I've ever tried mixing a real sax into one of my songs, so maybe I'm missing some very important point here.)

So, after hours of trying to make the NT2 tracks "fit" into the mix, I decided to try the 414 tracks, instead. Holy mackeral, what a difference!

The 414 tracks, by comparison, were fat and warm and very organic sounding---exactly the sound I'd been looking for to compliment the rest of the track. The difference between the two mics actually stunned me, and I'm still having a hard time believeing it.

But, the real interesting part is not just the difference in the sonic qualities of the two mics, but that the sound of the 414 let all of the *emotional* qualities of the sax solo come through. The Rode, on the exact same material, sounded sterile and devoid of any emotion. Wow. I had no idea that this would be dependent on the mic. I've always thought that "emotion" was purely a product of the performance. But, it seems that certain mics are able to translate that emotional aspect of a performance better than others.

Needless to say, I'm going with the 414 tracks. They not only have the emotional content, but they sit in the mix as if they were put there by some higher power. I'm just amazed.

Well, that's it. I just had to share another of my enlightening experiences in the world of recording in hopes that my experiences may help other newbies like myself.

Best regards to all,
Bill

PS This is not to say that the Rode NT2 is not a good mic. I've had *great* luck with it for vocals and for electric guitar. It just wasn't the right mic for this particular alto sax part.

PPS Anyone with helpful tips regarding the recording and treatment/mixing of sax's is certainly welcome to chime in here with some tips for me.... ;>)

Edited for punctuation

The MCA sp1 has this same characteristic like the 414 that makes stuff sit in the mix goood. I dont stress vocals nearly as much as my rode ntk.
The "hyped" sound catches the ear of the performer, but for the mix and overall, a "flatter", "truer" sound seems to work!

ORIGINAL: Lanceindastudio

The MCA sp1 has this same characteristic like the 414 that makes stuff sit in the mix goood. I dont stress vocals nearly as much as my rode ntk.
The "hyped" sound catches the ear of the performer, but for the mix and overall, a "flatter", "truer" sound seems to work!

Hi, Lanceindastudio,

Wow, if those sp1's make recordings that sit in the mix in a similar way as the 414 did, I'm going to have to get one of those. What an amazing thing it is to hear one mic, like my NT2, sound great but simply not fit into the mix and then hear the 414 sit in the mix like a silk glove.

It *is* interesting that the player, who is a highly seasoned pro that has played with the *very* top of the heap of artists, liked the hyped high's of the NT2. I would never have believed it. But, I'm betting that, when he hears the mix (I'm making him a mix with each mic used) he's going to like the 414 much, much better.

Best regards,
Bill

I find I'm using my NT2A less and less these days in favor of my sE Electronics sE2200A. The Røde FET's always seem to come off too bright. I still use the NT2A for distance micing of guitar cabs to give room, air and low-end to tracks where the mix isn't too busy (complementing the main guitar mic, a Sennheiser e906).

Sven

ORIGINAL: aaronk

It *is* interesting that the player, who is a highly seasoned pro that has played with the *very* top of the heap of artists, liked the hyped high's of the NT2.

It is indeed all subjective!

For certain. But in this case, it seemed really obvious to me that the 414 sounded so much better for the specific project that I couldn't believe that my extremely talanted sax playing friend didn't hear what I did.

Reading the words "hyped high's" leads me to one hypothesis -- if the sax player is older or just otherwise doesn't hear the higher frequencies so well, a boost there might sound nice to him, while sounding too much to you.

Yes, you may have hit it on the head. The player in question is, like myself, in his mid-late 50's and has probably lost some of his high freq's over the years. On the other hand, I've been playing in loud rock/blues bands for 37 years and I *know* I have real damage in my left ear. So, it's hard to say just what the factor is that made the sax player like the hyped sound.

I'm no expert on mikes, but I'm under the general impression that the C414 is a tremendous vocal mike (?) If so, it wouldn't surprise me that it would flatter a saxophone, which is a very "vocal" instrument.

I'm not and expert, either; In fact, though I've been recording since 1970, I've never really jumped in with both feet and learned all the proper techniques and proceedures for making great recordings. Therefore, I consider myself a newbie at this whole thing. Or, maybe "newbie with a clue" would be a better description. ;>)

But, I can tell you one thing for sure: I definitely want to borrow that old C414 to try some vocals through it because I totally agree with you that it seems like it ought to be a fantastic vocal mic. And it was, for certain, a natural, organic fit with the alto sax. I'd love to hear it on a tenor sax, too. By the way, for informational purposes, this was an older 414, not one of the currently available ones. I forget the exact numerical designation but it was something like C414BULS or the like. Awesome mic!

Best regards,
Bill

My 414s sound solid and extremely detailed in the low end while the top end is unhyped and accurate.

A lot of the good deal mics I hear sound thin (detailed?) and uncertain in the low range.

Have fun with your mix,
mike

I agree with checking out what others here say about gear, and also finding a sound I like on the songs forum and asking what they used to obtain it. Awhile back, I heard a vocal and acoustic song there, and asked the artist what he used. I ended up doing a little research, and bought the same mic he had on ebay. I absolutely love the thing. Oh yes, it's a C414.

Randy