Midi Keyboard Setup

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Robomusic
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RE: Midi Keyboard Setup 2009/07/15 18:33:53 (permalink)
It is just a suggestion, as some folks are not comfortable with this idea. But if you want i could shadow your screen and check your setup. I have done this for a couple other folks and solved the issues in a few minutes.

I'd Seize the day but i can't quite reach it!

http://www.acidplanet.com/artist.asp?AID=33477&T=1260
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#61
rudboi510
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RE: Midi Keyboard Setup 2009/07/15 18:47:16 (permalink)
I dont have a problem with that...what software are you using?
#62
Robomusic
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RE: Midi Keyboard Setup 2009/07/15 19:28:46 (permalink)
cross loop http://www.crossloop.com/ipage.htm?id=download

download and install the program, and then give me the access code, and i will log on

I am at work now and will be here for about 35 minutes more, then after that at home around 6:00 P.M. PST


I'd Seize the day but i can't quite reach it!

http://www.acidplanet.com/artist.asp?AID=33477&T=1260
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#63
rudboi510
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RE: Midi Keyboard Setup 2009/07/15 19:31:26 (permalink)
Here's the code...2134 2324 8955
#64
Robomusic
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RE: Midi Keyboard Setup 2009/07/15 19:52:00 (permalink)
Sorry got tied up here i come

click accept
post edited by Robomusic - 2009/07/15 19:54:51

I'd Seize the day but i can't quite reach it!

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Robomusic
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RE: Midi Keyboard Setup 2009/07/15 20:02:14 (permalink)
Gotta run, but will check back in one hour at 6:00 P.M. PST

I'd Seize the day but i can't quite reach it!

http://www.acidplanet.com/artist.asp?AID=33477&T=1260
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Robomusic
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RE: Midi Keyboard Setup 2009/07/15 21:42:41 (permalink)
After a quick look it seems that you are setup properly for the most part, the audio is routed correctly, the midi is good with the exception of that it is not sounding i suspect that either the casio is not allowing the midi to be received, look for a setting on the keyboard that you can set the channel assignements, or the cables are backwards. Those issues i can not see. I also do not see midi data in the tracks, so try downloading a free midi file from the net and play it thru. Also try routing it thru edirol synth i setup.Gotta run i have an appointment will check back

I'd Seize the day but i can't quite reach it!

http://www.acidplanet.com/artist.asp?AID=33477&T=1260
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57Gregy
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RE: Midi Keyboard Setup 2009/07/16 00:22:53 (permalink)
If a person has multiple USB devices connected, will that affect data transfer of any or all of the connected devices if they're all running at the same time?
Rudy, did I see in one of your now-deleted screen shots that you're using Magic JacK?

Greg 
I am selling my MIM Fender Stratocaster HSS, red and black. PM for more details.

Music Creator 2003, MC Pro 24, SONAR Home Studio 6 XL, SONAR  X3e, CbB, Focusrite Saffire, not enough space.
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#68
Robomusic
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RE: Midi Keyboard Setup 2009/07/16 02:28:21 (permalink)
The problem is definately signal chain. His USB interface is setup properly, it has the device listed as the audio in and out in ASIO mode. The device is listed as the midi in and out as well. I do not use a midi keyboard often but as i remember it must be ran thru the input monitoring to work, unless the track is armed and record is clicked.

Rudy i will check in sometime tomorrow morning and if we both have a little time, I can try to shadow again and we can try to work thru the problem.

I'd Seize the day but i can't quite reach it!

http://www.acidplanet.com/artist.asp?AID=33477&T=1260
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#69
57Gregy
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RE: Midi Keyboard Setup 2009/07/16 08:16:58 (permalink)
as i remember it must be ran thru the input monitoring to work, unless the track is armed and record is clicked.


Hmm... I've never had to have Input Monitoring enabled, or the Input Echo button pushed to hear MIDI play through the keyboard. In fact, all I did, with all MC and SONAR versions, is plug it in and select the MIDI device. I think. MC 2003 was a long time ago.
Got to be a hardware problem. Rudy, can you please tell us if your MIDI cables are connected with the in plug to the out port, and the out plug connected to the in port?

Greg 
I am selling my MIM Fender Stratocaster HSS, red and black. PM for more details.

Music Creator 2003, MC Pro 24, SONAR Home Studio 6 XL, SONAR  X3e, CbB, Focusrite Saffire, not enough space.
Everything is better with pie. 

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=609446
http://www.reverbnation.com/#!/gregfields 
#70
rudboi510
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RE: Midi Keyboard Setup 2009/07/16 09:18:16 (permalink)
I know we've discussed the cable scenario several times during this thread, but I can assume you that I have them connected correctly, otherwise I don't think that I wold see that midi activity via my USB device or systray icon. Anyway, I tried downloading a midi track from the web and playing it via my keyboard and still no go. Using the edirol synth, I was successful in hearing the midi playback, but it was from the main output from my USB and when I tried to change the output to a omni usb channe, the midi track could not be heard.

There must be something with my keyboard..?? I have no other way of testing the data transfer other than replacing the keyboard.
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57Gregy
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RE: Midi Keyboard Setup 2009/07/16 09:30:04 (permalink)
Check them anyway. We've had some other guys who had them connected backwards and it showed MIDI activity, but not the right MIDI activity.

Greg 
I am selling my MIM Fender Stratocaster HSS, red and black. PM for more details.

Music Creator 2003, MC Pro 24, SONAR Home Studio 6 XL, SONAR  X3e, CbB, Focusrite Saffire, not enough space.
Everything is better with pie. 

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=609446
http://www.reverbnation.com/#!/gregfields 
#72
Beagle
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RE: Midi Keyboard Setup 2009/07/16 11:02:14 (permalink)
Guys, with all due respect, I think we've exhausted the possibilities here beyond what we can do without further troubleshooting hardware replacement on HIS end as I describe below:

He's receiving MIDI data INTO the computer and it's being recorded, but it won't send MIDI data OUT to the keyboard or the keyboard is not receiving it or it is not interpreting it like it should.

his keyboard only accepts MIDI INPUT from a host on channel 1 unless you change that parameter using SYSX data.

I've had him send only one MIDI track to the keyboard with channel 1 as the only output and it didn't work.

he's checked the MIDI cables several times to make sure they are connected propertly: i.e.: MIDI OUT from the Alesis goes to MIDI IN on the keyboard, MIDI IN on the Alesis goes to the MIDI OUT on the keyboard. he wouldn't be receiving correct MIDI data in MC being recorded if the cables were reversed.

if he's receiving MIDI data correctly then it can't be the MIDI INPUT cable into the Alesis, nor can it be the Alesis' MIDI INPUT

if it won't send MIDI correctly the signal is being broken either at the:
* Alesis with a bad MIDI OUTPUT PORT (not likely, but possible)
* MIDI cable OUTPUT from the Alesis, INPUT to the keyboard side only
* keyboard is not recieving/interpreting the MIDI data correctly being sent to it - i.e. the keyboard itself is broken.

the only way to continue troubleshooting this problem, IMO, is to either:
* borrow or buy another MIDI cable and try it to see if the MIDI OUTPUT portion of his current cable is inoperative
* buy a MIDI/USB cable and try by-passing the Alesis MIDI ports, taking the MIDI I/O directly into MC thru a separate USB path
* borrow another keyboard with MIDI I/O ports to determine if his keyboard is broken or not

http://soundcloud.com/beaglesound/sets/featured-songs-1
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#73
Robomusic
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RE: Midi Keyboard Setup 2009/07/16 11:07:55 (permalink)
When you played thru the midi file and it came out the USB interfaces audio out that was correct for that situation, that shows midi data was routing from the tracks to a synth and the synth was sending the audio to the main output. So now we know that that part of the signal chain is in tact.

Next using that same midi file change the output of the tracks to the USB devices midi out port, then literally take your hand and follwo the cable from the midi out port on the interface and see if it goes and connects to the midi in on the casio keyboard.

If it does, then look at the little screen on the casio and see what it is setup to receive on, my guess is it should have an omni or all channels setting

I'd Seize the day but i can't quite reach it!

http://www.acidplanet.com/artist.asp?AID=33477&T=1260
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#74
rudboi510
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RE: Midi Keyboard Setup 2009/07/16 11:18:23 (permalink)
Unfortunately, I'm in the office right now, but let me first say--You guys have been great in trying to help me troubleshoot my issues and if IT IS my keyboard--this will have not gone in vain.

I will try the last step you suggested once I'm back in the studio, but I'm very much leaning away from the cables being damaged. I've already reversed them from the keyboard and usb and I just purchased them last week, but I like the idea about the USB to MIDI..??

I'd like to ask a real dumb question--- in lieu of my lack of understanding the advantage of using MIDI. Since I can record using the Audio tracks of my MC, what exactly does the MIDI recording feature provide in way of home studio recording...I know it sounds dumb, but I'd like to really understand this feature.

Last night I was able to use the synth interface and that looks like it can be interesting...only if I understand the midi advantage and not having the option of using my keyboard.

Thanks again to everyone who participated in this thread.
#75
Robomusic
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RE: Midi Keyboard Setup 2009/07/16 11:27:50 (permalink)
Rudy i looked up the manual for your keyboard and under " no sound when sending midi data from a computer" the answers were 1. midi cables not attached correctly, and 2. midi channels not on. For 1. the fix was reverse the cables and 2. turn on the channels, this one is done on the small display screen my guess is that you press and hold the channels button and toggle on the channels not already on. Then make sure that the tracksa are sending all on separate channels, with drums on 10

I'd Seize the day but i can't quite reach it!

http://www.acidplanet.com/artist.asp?AID=33477&T=1260
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#76
rudboi510
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RE: Midi Keyboard Setup 2009/07/16 11:38:31 (permalink)
Here's the deal with that---the channels are listed on a display, but the channel 1 is always flashing and escalates once I start playing from the keyboard as well as the other channels according to what the sounds are on that channel. There a soft pads that(I assume) toggle the channels on/off and I've tried them during playback and recording--I've noticed that sometimes during my attempts to record I have seen a change in the track(but I think we've identified that as controller events) that have changed during the select/deselect of the channel.

There is another feature in the keyboard that supports the changing of the channel--it under the transport option, but I've tried changing that from the default 01 to other channels prior to and during my midi recording attempts.

I'll try this process once I'm back on the keyboard and let you know the outcome.

Thanks again!!!
#77
Beagle
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RE: Midi Keyboard Setup 2009/07/16 11:54:34 (permalink)
If it does, then look at the little screen on the casio and see what it is setup to receive on, my guess is it should have an omni or all channels setting

There is another feature in the keyboard that supports the changing of the channel--it under the transport option, but I've tried changing that from the default 01 to other channels prior to and during my midi recording attempts.

as I said above - according to his manual his keyboard ONLY receives MIDI on channel 1 unless you change it using SYSX data.

Last night I was able to use the synth interface and that looks like it can be interesting...only if I understand the midi advantage and not having the option of using my keyboard.

YES - the alternative is to use softsynths.

http://soundcloud.com/beaglesound/sets/featured-songs-1
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#78
Robomusic
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RE: Midi Keyboard Setup 2009/07/16 12:22:24 (permalink)
I might have read it wrong Reese, but when i looked up the manual, it said under troubleshooting that is it did not receive from a computer to make sure all the midi channels were on by toggling them to the on position. That would indicate that it can receive on all channels, but is defaulted to 1

If you look at pages 89 and 90 of the manual it states that it can receive on all 16 channels. Still i might be missing something.
post edited by Robomusic - 2009/07/16 12:28:55

I'd Seize the day but i can't quite reach it!

http://www.acidplanet.com/artist.asp?AID=33477&T=1260
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#79
Beagle
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RE: Midi Keyboard Setup 2009/07/16 12:34:22 (permalink)
that does sound like you should be able to "toggle them" on the keyboard menus, but what I read was this:

http://support.casio.com/pdf/008/MIDI_imple_E.pdf

ref: MIDI Receive Channel section 5 (page 8) and that points you to section 10.7 on how to change the "global channel" using SYSX.

on page 91 of the actual MANUAL:
http://support.casio.com/pdf/008/wk_3000_01_e.pdf
it says that the keyboard will receive data on all 16 channels IF you have it set up to do so, but I don't see anywhere in the manual where it tells you how to do that. I could only find how to set up multiple channels in the MIDI IMPLEMENTATION document above showing to change it in the SYSX data.
page 92 of the manual goes on to talk about MIDI Receive on 16 channels, but again it doesn't say HOW to change it in the keyboard menus - it just says that MIDI Receive on 16 channels is POSSIBLE. (what a frickin' joke of a manual!!! )

http://soundcloud.com/beaglesound/sets/featured-songs-1
i7, 16G DDR3, Win10x64, MOTU Ultralite Hybrid MK3
Yamaha MOXF6, Hammond XK3c, other stuff.
#80
rudboi510
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RE: Midi Keyboard Setup 2009/07/16 13:10:11 (permalink)
Correct, The manual lis not supporting at all when it comes to the MIDI features. It explains a bunch of the other features, not that they aren't helpful..??

Well, it looks like I'm going to have to become savvy with the synth interface, which doesn't seem at that bad. I'm not the expert song writer/musician, so I will have plenty of time to get acclimated to the Home Studio recording thing...I Hope.

The one thing that the keyboard does support, I can turn off tracks used in a song that are accompanied by the other instruments in the song. I think that can help me with the Audio recording of multiple tracks to support the mixing side of things..??
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Robomusic
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RE: Midi Keyboard Setup 2009/07/16 14:51:42 (permalink)
There is little to go on, but the trouble shooting leads me to beleive you have to hold the channel button and then press the individual 16 buttons next to it to toggle on or off. I assume that it comes with only channel 1 on

I'd Seize the day but i can't quite reach it!

http://www.acidplanet.com/artist.asp?AID=33477&T=1260
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#82
57Gregy
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RE: Midi Keyboard Setup 2009/07/16 22:20:05 (permalink)
The advantage of using MIDI is that if you record a track, MIDI, and make just a couple mistakes, or lots of them, you can edit the data so the notes are correct or the timing is correct. You can also easily transpose to another key if you decide the song might be easier to sing in G instead of A.
You can also change the patch (instrument sound) at any time after you've recorded the MIDI track, so you could change it from Grand Piano to Rhodes Piano, or whatever other sound you want to try. You can also layer the MIDI tracks; record a piano, and clone the track and change the clone's patch to strings, or xylophone, so both instruments are playing the same thing.
With audio, if you make a mistake, and it's bad enough to be noticable, you have to record the whole track again... well, you could split out the bad part and use punch-in recording to replace the bad part. With audio, what you hear is what you get, and I find it easier to edit the MIDI than to re-record something.

Greg 
I am selling my MIM Fender Stratocaster HSS, red and black. PM for more details.

Music Creator 2003, MC Pro 24, SONAR Home Studio 6 XL, SONAR  X3e, CbB, Focusrite Saffire, not enough space.
Everything is better with pie. 

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=609446
http://www.reverbnation.com/#!/gregfields 
#83
rudboi510
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RE: Midi Keyboard Setup 2009/07/17 08:58:21 (permalink)
Yes, you're absolutely correct. I spent last night working on recording music and realized some of the important advantages you mentioned. I do have another question about this midi issues I'm having...Since we've already identified that I can't playback thru my keyboard, what if I remove the cable and just try recording the track in midi via the one cable---or do you have to have the in/out cables connected on both ports to do any type of midi data transfer..??

I also spent some time working with the synth--not an easy tool, but in my case probably on the only midi recording tool available today.

Also, mentioned earlier---there was suggestion for trying to use a MIDI/USB cable to bypass my Alesis device---would that cable have USB on one end and in/out midi on the other or just 1 midi connection on the other end of the usb?

Thanks,
#84
Beagle
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RE: Midi Keyboard Setup 2009/07/17 09:25:38 (permalink)
Since we've already identified that I can't playback thru my keyboard, what if I remove the cable and just try recording the track in midi via the one cable---or do you have to have the in/out cables connected on both ports to do any type of midi data transfer..??

why do you want to remove the output cable? it won't hurt anything but I don't see why it's hurting anything being connected, either. you were able to record MIDI, just not play, so the output cable wasn't hindering your INPUT, so I'm just curious why you want to disconnect the output.
Also, mentioned earlier---there was suggestion for trying to use a MIDI/USB cable to bypass my Alesis device---would that cable have USB on one end and in/out midi on the other or just 1 midi connection on the other end of the usb?

yes, here are some options:
http://keyboards-midi.musiciansfriend.com/navigation/midi-interfaces?N=100001+338032&Ns=P_Price%7c0&rpp=20

http://soundcloud.com/beaglesound/sets/featured-songs-1
i7, 16G DDR3, Win10x64, MOTU Ultralite Hybrid MK3
Yamaha MOXF6, Hammond XK3c, other stuff.
#85
rudboi510
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RE: Midi Keyboard Setup 2009/07/17 09:35:42 (permalink)
I haven't been able to record the midi--remember it keeps showing up as controller data in the track. That's the number-1 problem. I can see that data passing thru the usb midi output(and systray), but no sound nor is the data from the keyboard remaining in the track once I stop the recording.

So, I figured since I could see the data transferring across the usb removing the expected playback option(other cable) I could just record and playback via the synth..??

Am I on the right path..??

Thanks,
#86
Beagle
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RE: Midi Keyboard Setup 2009/07/17 09:45:51 (permalink)
I haven't been able to record the midi--remember it keeps showing up as controller data in the track.

no, I didn't remember that - I could have sworn I read that you did see the MIDI data on the tracks. sorry - then I am wrong about a lot of the troubleshooting I was trying to have you do. if you can't record MIDI data - if you're only getting controller data instead, then it very likely is your cables are either switched (input going to input instead of to output and visa versa) or your cables are bad or your alesis MIDI I/O ports are bad. it still could be the keyboard, but I'd be surprised if it's not one of those I just mentioned.

I know you said you switched the midi cables around, but that really would be my most likely candidate here. the OUTPUT from the Alesis should go to the INPUT of the keyboard and the INPUT of the Alesis should go to the OUTPUT of the keyboard.

So, I figured since I could see the data transferring across the usb removing the expected playback option(other cable) I could just record and playback via the synth..??
you WILL see the little LEDs light up for SEND/RECEIVE even if your cables are swapped, but the result will be that you won't get the correct data into or out of MC. the exact result you're getting.

so I REALLY think that the MIDI cables are not connected correctly
OR
the cables are labelled incorrectly
OR
they are bad cables.

http://soundcloud.com/beaglesound/sets/featured-songs-1
i7, 16G DDR3, Win10x64, MOTU Ultralite Hybrid MK3
Yamaha MOXF6, Hammond XK3c, other stuff.
#87
Beagle
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RE: Midi Keyboard Setup 2009/07/17 09:49:43 (permalink)
NOTE: when we say to switch the MIDI cables around - don't swap BOTH ENDS. just swap the cables on either the Alesis OR on the keyboard end.

http://soundcloud.com/beaglesound/sets/featured-songs-1
i7, 16G DDR3, Win10x64, MOTU Ultralite Hybrid MK3
Yamaha MOXF6, Hammond XK3c, other stuff.
#88
rudboi510
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RE: Midi Keyboard Setup 2009/07/17 09:52:50 (permalink)
Do you recommend a particular cable manufacture or would you say a MIDI cable is a MIDI cable. The ones I have I just purchased from RadioShack and they were not expensive at all, but from what I've seen over the inter regarding cables--most of the music stores had the same thing just way-over-priced.

Okay, I'm going to try and replace the cables....I can't get any worst than it already is:)

Thanks,
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Beagle
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RE: Midi Keyboard Setup 2009/07/17 10:05:25 (permalink)
we may have cross posted - did you see the NOTE that I put on the last post about swapping only ONE side of the cables, not both? Make sure that when you swap the MIDI cables you ONLY swap the keyboard side OR the Alesis side, NOT BOTH.

RS MIDI cables should work just fine - there's no need to buy expensive MIDI cables, there's no need to shield them, just inexpensive MIDI cables are fine.

http://soundcloud.com/beaglesound/sets/featured-songs-1
i7, 16G DDR3, Win10x64, MOTU Ultralite Hybrid MK3
Yamaha MOXF6, Hammond XK3c, other stuff.
#90
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