Helpful ReplyMidi and middle C an Pan laws-Confusion

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stratman70
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2018/11/04 02:55:30 (permalink)

Midi and middle C an Pan laws-Confusion

So, working with first new reinstall of all things Sonar, midi, vsts, etc in new build.
 
I vaguely remember their was a place in sonar where we could change (affect?) middle C but I cannot remember.
Reason being all of my midi files and for ALL instruments are now transposed up 3 octaves. Like C1 was one of my normal kicks. It is now C4? same for bass, piano etc. Bass notes normally were C2 and C3 range.
I did not change anything, well not on purpose anyway. But something sure has changed. These are the same midi files I have been working on before the re install/
I am in Splat btw. But it is the same in CWbyBL
Also I need to add the notes are NOT tonally changed.
Thanks

 
 
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stratman70
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Re: Midi and middle C an Pan laws-Confusion 2018/11/04 03:08:27 (permalink)
Also-Say like a bass note in event view is E2. It is t low and out of range for my bass vsts all of a sudden. Scarbee basses mostly. So I get it's a visual thing but it sure is screwing up my editing attempts because I am so used to what I ----Hope that makes sense?

 
 
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sock monkey
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Re: Midi and middle C an Pan laws-Confusion 2018/11/04 05:15:06 (permalink)
I just opened a file to check this as I was not sure what note ranges I have, Mine come up in both SPLAT and CbB as a GM kick drum is C3 and the lowest note of a bass is E3   
 
What was interesting was that I have not opened Sonar for a long time... It first warned me that I was opening a file from a newer version and features would be lost - Side chaining or something like that,,, Then it crashed when I tried to close it. Thank you to all involved for CbB. 

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#3
soens
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Re: Midi and middle C an Pan laws-Confusion 2018/11/04 06:22:23 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby stratman70 2018/11/04 22:34:22
Try looking in Preferences->Customization->Display you can change the "Base Octave for Pitches" setting there.
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bitflipper
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Re: Midi and middle C an Pan laws-Confusion 2018/11/04 16:27:09 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby rcklln 2018/11/04 17:40:17
What you have to remember is that MIDI doesn't care about octave notation. It simply says that MIDI note 60 is Middle C (261 Hz), and that's that. It does not dictate what you call that note. That's a display issue, not a musical one. The MIDI Manufacturer's Association would have no problem with you calling it "Fred".
 
Electronics engineers and software programmers tend to start numbering at zero, because when you reference a list of things, be they numbers or names, you specify an offset (or index) into an array. Zero means the top of the list (no offset), and 1 refers to the second thing on the list (base address + 1).
 
Because synthesizers were designed by engineers and not musicians (e.g. Bob Moog was not a musician), the zero-based convention made far more sense. A MIDI note value of zero would correspond to C0. An octave up would be C1, and so on. That's the approach Cakewalk took. Unfortunately, that makes MIDI 60 land on the 5th "C", so it would be designated "C5". Yamaha had their own take on it, making Middle C = "C3". Meanwhile, in the musical world, while there was no universal consensus, most musicians called it C4.
 
Bottom line: if you want Middle C to be called "C4" in the PRV, set the "base octave for pitches" to -1.
 
When it comes to drums in particular, use a drum map. Drum maps don't care about "C4" vs. "C3" or "C5", only MIDI note values. With a drum map, the PRV shows "Kick" for MIDI note value 36, regardless of the base octave designation.
 
Where I used to often get confused was with keyswitches for Kontakt instruments, because Kontakt instrument developers presume "C4 = Middle C", and show keyswitch assignments that way rather than by MIDI note numbers.
 
For example, if a Kontakt instrument designates MIDI note 24 as an articulation selector, the instrument developer will typically show that as "C0" on the GUI. Some, such as Orange Tree Samples, try to avoid such confusion by showing the actual MIDI note value, which no doubt confuses musicians even more!
 
Most other vendors don't do this. For example, in Kirk Hunter Concert Strings 2, if I'd wanted to choose the "Smooth" articulation (C#1) I'd have to drop it into the PRV at C#2. Confusing! Nowadays, I have Cakewalk's base octave set to -1, which makes my PRV line up with CS2 and other Kontakt instruments.


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Anderton
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Re: Midi and middle C an Pan laws-Confusion 2018/11/04 17:15:41 (permalink)
Bit, that is what I call a lucid explanation of a topic that has confused people for over 30 years 

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mettelus
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Re: Midi and middle C an Pan laws-Confusion 2018/11/04 20:00:52 (permalink)
I blame the total lack of binary foresight when pianos were first made. If a piano had 128 keys, we wouldn't have this issue. Programmers can slide the entire keyboard 3 octaves and still catch all the notes :(

As retaliation, musicians will promote "88-bit audio" as the next iteration to mess with the programmers!

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soens
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Re: Midi and middle C an Pan laws-Confusion 2018/11/04 20:11:46 (permalink)
bitflipper
Bottom line: if you want Middle C to be called "C4" in the PRV, set the "base octave for pitches" to -1.



… which appears to be the default setting on my versions.
 
Until MIDI and the electronic environment opened up a can of worms regarding this, middle C was based on the 88 key piano (which standard sheet music relies on). General MIDI has 128 notes (I've never seen a 128 key controller but this guy came close). Be a lot less confusion if everyone based it on the all-ready-established piano.
 
Side note: C4 shud be handled very carefully.
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stratman70
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Re: Midi and middle C an Pan laws-Confusion 2018/11/04 22:36:51 (permalink)
All right then. I must have changed the "display" years ago and this time wih the new install I never did it. 
I appreciate all the great help-Bitflipper-great explanation and Soens thanks for pointing to it.
 
I use so much midi I am just so use to knowing exactly what I am looking at when I see the notes. I'd rather note to start seeing C3 as my kick when I am so use to C1. 
Thanks so much guys Just great stuff!

 
 
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henkejs
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Re: Midi and middle C an Pan laws-Confusion 2018/11/06 16:09:52 (permalink)
soens
Side note: C4 shud be handled very carefully.

 


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John
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Re: Midi and middle C an Pan laws-Confusion 2018/11/06 17:55:52 (permalink)
If my MIDI is out of range I transpose it. GM had one huge advantage over sampled playing synths no range barriers. 

Best
John
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