sonarman1
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Re: Midi events appear to be written sooner than they should
2016/05/17 01:18:00
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People who have problem with midi events appearing soon. It will be useful if you post your Total roundtrip latency here for your current settings. steplander and jackasspenguin can you post your round trip latency? The latency seems to occur only while we play from the keyboard controller or rec from the keyboard controller. Not when we playback the recorded midi notes. We tend to play the notes ahead so that the delayed audio sounds in time with the metronome or other ins. This delay is due to the roundtrip latency. But when we playback the recorded midi notes there is no latency hence the audio is not delayed and we end up hearing the audio ahead (sooner) during playback. So the notes end up sounding ahead of the beat. And we have to move the recorded notes later to fix it. Hope this helps. steplander By going though my old post I have realized that you can end up recording the midi notes sooner if your metronome is sooner. So even if you have no latency issue just the metronome issue is enough to make your midi notes to appear sooner. You can try to trigger metronome from a vsti instead of using sonars metronome. If unsynced metronome is your only issue. This will sort out your problem. Its a easy fix. Or someone should help you with technically solving the metronome bug you are having.
post edited by sonarman1 - 2016/05/17 01:48:31
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brundlefly
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Re: Midi events appear to be written sooner than they should
2016/05/17 02:34:20
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As mentioned in your previous thread about this, Soft synth recording is not compensated for latency like normal audio input, so it's not a good timing reference ( http://forum.cakewalk.com/FindPost/3400689). Also, since your timeline doesn't show M:B:T, it's not really possible to know what's early/late and by how much compared to the audio metronome. I see there was a follow-up post in your earlier thread that I missed about recording simultaneous MIDI and audio from a keyboard synth. You mentioned getting a fixed audio latency regardless of ASIO buffer size. That is typical if you're driving the synth by MIDI echoed through SONAR because of keyboard scan time plus MIDI round-trip time, synth response time and D/A conversion in the synth if you're recording an analog output. 15-17ms isn't out of line if your MIDI interface is on the slow side. You'll get less un-compensated latency if you set the keyboard synth to use Local Control. You may also have some uncompensated interface latency if the driver isn't accurately reporting latency to SONAR. SONAR has a Manual Offset to add compensation for this 'hidden' latency. You can use a tool like the CEntrance Latency Tester to measure the actual latency and enter the difference between that actual value and the reported round-trip value in SONAR as the Manual Offset in samples. When SONAR's audio compensation is set up properly with minimal ASIO buffers and good audio and MIDI interface hardware/driver performance, there should be a very minimal discrepancy between record and playback timing with either software or hardware synths.
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sonarman1
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Re: Midi events appear to be written sooner than they should
2016/05/17 02:40:16
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However, I discovered under Synchronization Full Chase Lock, there is a field called (Best When Chasing to Midi Time Code) That's what you want to adjust! Mine was at 0, so I cranked it up to 200 and wow, way over shot the markers! I was almost a 1/4 measure off. So I pulled it back in to 75 and that's really close to what I need it to be.
Wow! My bad I ignored trying this out first! That really fixes this. Both the midi rec and payback are in sync. I just adjusted the timing offset according to the difference between the midi notes and the audio in the synth audio track. Now its all perfect like there is no roundtrip latency at all. You can also set this offset ms value based on the roundtrip latency. Even people with negligible latency of 10-15ms can use this offset to make it sound perfect. Thanks finally.
post edited by sonarman1 - 2016/05/17 03:47:33
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sonarman1
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Re: Midi events appear to be written sooner than they should
2016/05/17 02:43:26
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brundlefly
As mentioned in your previous thread about this, Soft synth recording is not compensated for latency like normal audio input, so it's not a good timing reference (http://forum.cakewalk.com/FindPost/3400689). Also, since your timeline doesn't show M:B:T, it's not really possible to know what's early/late and by how much compared to the audio metronome.
I see there was a follow-up post in your earlier thread that I missed about recording simultaneous MIDI and audio from a keyboard synth. You mentioned getting a fixed audio latency regardless of ASIO buffer size. That is typical if you're driving the synth by MIDI echoed through SONAR because of keyboard scan time plus MIDI round-trip time, synth response time and D/A conversion in the synth if you're recording an analog output. 15-17ms isn't out of line if your MIDI interface is on the slow side. You'll get less un-compensated latency if you set the keyboard synth to use Local Control.
You may also have some uncompensated interface latency if the driver isn't accurately reporting latency to SONAR. SONAR has a Manual Offset to add compensation for this 'hidden' latency. You can use a tool like the CEntrance Latency Tester to measure the actual latency and enter the difference between that actual value and the reported round-trip value in SONAR as the Manual Offset in samples.
When SONAR's audio compensation is set up properly with minimal ASIO buffers and good audio and MIDI interface hardware/driver performance, there should be a very minimal discrepancy between record and playback timing with either software or hardware synths.
That's helpful thanks. I will quote this there and make a reply in that thread.
post edited by sonarman1 - 2016/05/17 03:19:01
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sonarman1
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Re: Midi events appear to be written sooner than they should
2016/05/17 02:54:05
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brundlefly What are the odds of setting this full chase lock timing offset? You have pointed out it will be a problem if using both software and hardware synths. Will there be any other problem. I always use softsynths. All of my rec is based on softsynth. I don't even rec audio for any purpose, so I dont think setting this timing offset will create any other problem. In that case this is the fix that I need. Will there be any other problem coz of setting this offset? Please do tell me that.
post edited by sonarman1 - 2016/05/17 03:48:19
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steplander
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Re: Midi events appear to be written sooner than they should
2016/07/31 08:51:53
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Sonarman1; I didn't get notification of your post and am just seeing it now. Thanks for posting this. I've been battling with Cakewalk Support forever. They don't even respond to me anymore.
post edited by steplander - 2016/07/31 09:19:59
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pinguinotuerto
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Re: Midi events appear to be written sooner than they should
2016/08/02 17:09:09
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☄ Helpfulby steplander 2016/08/31 16:25:29
I know I'm very late to this game and I haven't read all the answers, so forgive me if this was answered already, but I have this issue and it's very easy to correct. Sonar compensates for your interface's latency by delaying the audio being recorded in order for it to line up with your pre-recorded tracks. Since there's technically no latency with MIDI data, the MIDI info ends up being recorded a little bit ahead of your audio data. To correct this go to preferences look at "Audio-Sync and Caching", and at the bottom you'll see "Record Latency Adjustment (samples)". I have "use ASIO reported latency" selected. Take that same number (IN SAMPLES) that's being reported and enter it in your Nudge settings (also as samples/absolute time). Once you record MIDI data, nudge your clip to the right using the settings I just mentioned and it will line up perfectly. The "use ASIO reported latency" number is the same as your "ASIO reported roundtrip latency" under "Driver settings". Hope the answer isn't too convoluted and it helps someone.
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steplander
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Re: Midi events appear to be written sooner than they should
2016/08/31 16:11:24
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Thank you, Pinguinotuerto!
More people are starting to notice the problem.
I am seeing MIDI planting early and seeing the METRONOME playing early as well.
Not everyone sees this issue so I'll often get a response that is very negative.
Cakewalk doesn't even respond to any of my service requests. (I think they have black-listed me....)
So glad you posted your suggestion and confirmation that you're seeing what me and a few others are seeing/experiencing.
The nudge suggestion works and is a good workaround.
I also found that creating a MANUAL click track seems to make a difference.
Maybe between the Cakewalk metronome playing early and the fact that midi recordings are planting early, the early notes are more noticeable to me.
It's been an annoyance to me for years.
Thanks again!
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pinguinotuerto
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Re: Midi events appear to be written sooner than they should
2016/08/31 17:06:36
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steplander
Thank you, Pinguinotuerto!
More people are starting to notice the problem.
I am seeing MIDI planting early and seeing the METRONOME playing early as well.
Not everyone sees this issue so I'll often get a response that is very negative.
Cakewalk doesn't even respond to any of my service requests. (I think they have black-listed me....)
So glad you posted your suggestion and confirmation that you're seeing what me and a few others are seeing/experiencing.
The nudge suggestion works and is a good workaround.
I also found that creating a MANUAL click track seems to make a difference.
Maybe between the Cakewalk metronome playing early and the fact that midi recordings are planting early, the early notes are more noticeable to me.
It's been an annoyance to me for years.
Thanks again!
Glad I was able to help!
HP DV7-3085 Laptop (Intel Core i7 720 1.6 GHZ, 6 GB RAM, 1333 MHZ FSB, 2 500GB 7200 RPM Internal HDs, 17" screen), HP 2009m Monitor, 2TB Ext Drive
Line 6 UX8 with PodFarm 2 Platinum 2 Joe Meek VC6Q British Channels
Sonar Platinum & X3e Producer (64 Bit) AD2 w Roland V-Drums (TD4KX2)
Windows 7 Home Premium (64 bit)KRK VXT 8 Monitors
Frontier Alphatrack, Razer Naga Mouse, nanoKontrol2
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