JohnEgan
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Minimizing Bleed to a Live Vocal Track
Good Day,
Can anyone tell me, or provide reference to the most effective way to try to minimize guitar and bass (no drums in this case) bleed on a live vocal track? (i.e., already recorded)
I can HP EQ out some of the bass, but of course lose some vocal low range, and been trying to use a gate, with "limited" success, (perhaps for lack of knowledge of proper use), and/or cutting off some of the vocal, Guitar is even more difficult (crunchy/distorted guitar). While in mix I guess you dont really notice it, but trying to reduce as much as possible anyway.
Is there a way to somehow cancel or reduce out bass and guitar, by somehow applying their tracks signal to the vocal track, at 180 degrees out of phase? ( I may just be dreaming here, LOL).
Any help/advice/direction would be appreciated.
Cheers
John Egan Sonar Platinum (2017-10),RME-UFX, PC-CPU - i7-5820, 3.3 GHz, 6 core, ASUS X99-AII, 16GB ram, GTX 960, 500 GB SSD, 2TB HDD x 2, Win7 Pro x64, O8N2 Advanced, Melodyne Studio,.... (2 cats :(, in the yard).
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Sanderxpander
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Re: Minimizing Bleed to a Live Vocal Track
2017/02/14 17:12:25
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Probably the phase trick wouldn't do much since I'm assuming you used different mics and there'd be some room sound on it as well. Sounds like you have already done most of the things I'd do. Except in extreme cases like this, it may be worth using automation rather than a gate. While it's much more work, it also usually cleans up a lot better.
Other than that, the only thing I can think of is maybe the RX spectral editor by IzoTope (free demo) or even polyphonic mode in Melodyne if the notes are very present. Both of those let you "delete" audio data that is not the vocal part you need.
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Jeff Evans
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Re: Minimizing Bleed to a Live Vocal Track
2017/02/14 17:22:33
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No amount of repair work after the fact will help you much. Phase tricks won't work either. Minimise the problem right at the source.
The obvious one is to get the vocalist to really get close to the vocal mic and like touching it. (kissing!) Then you can turn the gain down and still get a decent level out front. Really vocalists live should be doing this anyway. Then you will find that the vocal track will be loud and the other instruments will be pretty soft in the background.
Same thing too with the guitar and bass. Record the bass direct, that problem solved, and also mic the guitar cab real close too and you won't get any vocal bleed into the guitar mic either.
Are you about to do this recording or has it been done already. My advice only applies before the fact.
If the recording has been done then one approach you can try is actually start with the vocal track and get it sounding as good as you can even with the other stuff in there and then maybe just bring a little of the other two things in. You may just get away with that. Also when putting a high pass filter on the vocal to try and reduce the bass spill use a very steep slope e.g. 48 dB/oct and bring it up to the cutoff freq that gets rid of some of the bass without changing the vocal sound too much. The guitar is a bit trickier though.
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bitflipper
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Re: Minimizing Bleed to a Live Vocal Track
2017/02/14 17:33:54
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Bleed is just part of the "live" feel of a live recording. Once upon a time, all recordings were live. Back then it was controlled via mic and musician placement rather than in post-production. Take a look at how drums and amps are arrayed in a live-recorded performance.
I'd recommend John Fogerty's Premonition as a superb example. Note where Forgerty's mic is situated relative to the amps and drums. Get the DVD if you can. This YouTube version sounds decent, but on disk it's absolutely inspiring sound quality.
And yes, there is a technique for reducing bleed that's used for singers who have a hard time singing with headphones and prefer to monitor through speakers in the control room. As you suggested, it involves inverting the instruments bus and mixing it in low under the vocal track. And it does work in a controlled setting, with the speakers placed in the dead zone behind the microphone. In a truly live scenario, it probably would not be as effective. For one thing, part of the bleed would be the singer's own voice coming back from the PA and floor wedges. Trying to negate that would be nearly impossible without affecting the tone quality.
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listen
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Re: Minimizing Bleed to a Live Vocal Track
2017/02/14 18:09:22
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Everything, everybody shared is obviously valid. One more thing you might try and it is a long shot BUT try the R-MIX plug in and see how much you can filter out with that before losing to much VOCAL. Just a thought...
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Cactus Music
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Re: Minimizing Bleed to a Live Vocal Track
2017/02/14 19:30:41
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I was thinking you need a inverted Karaoke filter :)
I record a lot of live bands and #1 in the tool box is use a Shure 58 or Beta 58. There are other similar mikes too, but these are great at taking out the bleed at the source. You can also eat them and scream at them with out distortion.
And if your hearing a lot of bass than that was a bad job of EQ to begin with. Always hi pass the vocal mikes. I go as high as a 175 hz cut off on live vocals if I have the option. If there's only the 80hz button I use that and cut the low EQ to 10 o clock. Let the Bass, Keys and Kick cover those frequencies, not the singer.
The small amount of bleed I get is just part of the live sound and is actually important for that reason. That's what makes it sound live. I like that myself.
Sometimes you get a bit of phasing with loud crash and rides.
And yes lay out the performers and Backline so it avoids pointing at the vocal mike. You can also try gates on Back ups singer mikes so they shut off automatically. But only if the band is not a real loud. Like country or folk. Won't work with rock and roll.
There's a foot switch you can buy that allows Back up singers to only turn on their mike when they step up to sing.
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JohnEgan
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Re: Minimizing Bleed to a Live Vocal Track
2017/02/14 22:45:23
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Cactus Music
I was thinking you need a inverted Karaoke filter :)
Sounds like a good idea, I appreciate all the "feedback" (at least Im not dealing with feedback issues, LOL). This was kinda of a random party/jam performance in home studio, just trying to clean it up a bit now, and produce something out of it. What Im getting more is I should actually work more on the "liveness" rather than trying to polish it, since its recorded as such. Lots of great advice and ideas, thanks all. Cheers
John Egan Sonar Platinum (2017-10),RME-UFX, PC-CPU - i7-5820, 3.3 GHz, 6 core, ASUS X99-AII, 16GB ram, GTX 960, 500 GB SSD, 2TB HDD x 2, Win7 Pro x64, O8N2 Advanced, Melodyne Studio,.... (2 cats :(, in the yard).
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Cactus Music
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Re: Minimizing Bleed to a Live Vocal Track
2017/02/14 23:21:11
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Exactly, Just make it sound "real" and people will like it. Don't try and make it sound like a studio recording.
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