Missing high end? ***RESOLVED!

I'm making the switch from my old recording system, Roland VS2480, to my new PC DAW and SONAR.  One thing I notice is a lack of high end on anything I mic.  With the VS2480 when I mic a guitar cab I usually use an SM57 and I place it about 1" off center of the dust cap.  Any closer to the center than that and the high end would shave my head off.  With the new DAW I have the mic dead center of the dust cap and still can't get enough highs.  I notice the same thing with vocals...everything just sounds dull compared to the VS2480.

I'm using a firewire MOTU MKII audio interface.  I even tried using my Millennia HV-3B preamp in front of the MOTU with no high end difference.

Is there a SONAR Producer setting that may be attenuating the high end?

Any thoughts?

This is a long shot, but the first thing that jumps to mind is the sample rate.  It should be set >40K per second (pretty much the default, which is why I said it's a long shot).

CJaysMusic


ThIts not Sonar. Sonar records/captures exacly what you record. If the signal is lacking something, then its something before it reaches Sonar. You need to check your signal chain.

Sonar/Cakewalk would be out of buisiness if it did not capture accurate recording. Check your signal chain
Cj

I didn't mean to imply that there was something "wrong" with SONAR.  I was just asking if there might be a SONAR setting that I had to tweak.

A different input impedance between the MOTU and the VS2480 could account for a small difference in frequency response. Were you using that preamp with the VS2480? If so, then you can eliminate this as a possible explanation.

johnnyV


As Bitflipper is saying, every pre amp has a different sound. I'd be tempted to somehow use the old workstation as my pre amp and patch it somehow to the interface with an insert or direct outs or even better if it has SPDIF.
This is why I avoid using the pre amps on my M audio FT pro and I use my Yamaha o1v as a pre amp to the SPDIF out. The M audios pre amps are very dull sounding to me.

Hmmm...With the VS2480 my signal path looked like this:

mic -> Millennia HV-3B pre -> Lucid 9624 A/D -> VS2480 via SPDIF.  In other words, I eliminated the pres in the VS2480 via SPDIF and only used the Millennia as my pre.  Maybe I should try the same thing with the new system.

Maybe something like this to bypass the MOTU pres:

mic -> Millennia HV-3B -> Lucid 9624 A/D -> MOTU via SPDIF -> DAW via firewire???

That should get you the same sound.  I can't remember, is the Roland unit the one using bit compression or just wave files?  If it is compressed, your new rig might sound better.

@

Perhaps the Lucid 9624 has hyped highs in it's analog section?

Perhaps the SPDIF connection had a clocking chain that resulted in fun activity that created the impression of extra high freq energy?

One reason I mention the possibility of hyped highs is that I've never heard much high end coming of a SM57 and a guitar speaker... they usually start rolling off at about 8k. Furthermore I don't think overwhelming a mic with proximity effect by placing it so close to the speaker is an effective way to go searching for high freq energy. So, if you are suddenly missing high end I wonder if it was from something other than the source signal and the conversion.

I have heard people say that MOTU gear sounds dull. I have heard other people say MOTU gear is simply flat in a clinical way. I have heard people claim that some really well known high end converters have hyped frequency response that gives them name brand character. It's hard to say what is correct without getting the test gear out and running a whole bunch of tests.

Good Luck,
mike

I would try the SPDIF route first as that bypasses an extra conversion as well as it should bypass the "sound" of the Motu.
There is some merrit in the possible difference in recordings made to the VS2480.
My MD8 uses special encoding and seems to result in a very bright ( in a good way) sound.
As I said , I find the M audio to be dull so I simply bypass it using the Yamaha converters which are very good.
On the other hand the Tascam us1641 I just bought sounds pretty good. I can use the pre's without disappointment. To bad the drivers are iffy.

I had to order the XLR to TRS cables from Sweetwater since no one in my area has them in stock.  Anyway, I talked to the Sweetwater rep about the connections.  Based on my equipment, he's suggesting I go with my first idea. 
 
Mic -> Millennia -> Lucid -> MOTU via SPDIF -> DAW via firewire.
 
By doing so, I eliminate the MOTU pres and converters and also gain the "better" clocking coming from the Lucid.  That would almost be the identical signal path I had with the old system sans the firewire.

Hi Al,
 
Just a FWIW...
When mic'ing a guitar cab with a 57, I'd expect to hear a tight/focused mid oriented result.
What I wouldn't expect (under normal circumstances) is a lot of top end.  The 57 just doesn't capture a lot of top.
Point being, if the previous setup resulted in a lot more high end (in the same recording scenario), something had to be *really* hyping the top.  

johnnyV


Excellent!
I've always had to make my own XLR to TRS cables, they are rare.

Not meaning to shill or derail, but Markertek offers prefabricated or fabricated to order TRS/XLR cables made from Canare or Mogami, also using top-quality connectors of your choice.  Very pleased with mine.  Also, not dissing Sweetwater; great outfit.  Now back to the actual thread...

Jim Roseberry

Question: If I use this signal chain is there a clock setting in SONAR I need to be thinking about?

 
Just make sure to open the MOTU Audio Console... and under Clock Source select "S/PDIF"
That way you'll be using the Lucid's clock...
 
If you use that signal chain, you should hear the same results.
If not, it might be the lossy audio compression on the VS.
 
If you play a reference audio CD/etc... that plays back normal (no loss/deficiency in the high end)?

 
Great!  Thanks for the info!
 
As for playing a reference CD, I have not done that yet.  Playing a reference CD is only going to check the MOTU output...right?  The sample songs that come with SONAR sonically sound absolutely terrific.  I'm pretty sure this is an input signal chain issue, however, I'll pop in a few music CD's tonight and have a listen...thanks for the suggestion.

mike_mccue


There is one other thing to consider... I just figured out what you meant by a Roland VS2480.

In my opinion those type of devices are bass starved... there's bass on the buss but it's all mushy because the power supply is working hard to catch up. Kinda like my Mackie boards.

I wonder if you are just used to hearing what amounts to playback without the full spectrum and now the MOTU is giving you more punch in the bass which might create the impression you have?

For example; one way to make an electric guitar sound airy with a clean top end is to cut into the low frequencies with a low shelf.

Just a thought.

best regards,
mike 

My experience with the VS2480 was a bit different.  My biggest grip with the VS2480 was a lack of well defined punchy mid mids and bass.  The mids were never really there and the bass was a bit boomy and mushy.

I did some experimenting tonight with the new DAW and I was about to post my results when...da misses called...coming dear...be right back guys.

mike_mccue


"My experience with the VS2480 was a bit different.  My biggest grip with the VS2480 was a lack of well defined punchy mid mids and bass.  The mids were never really there and the bass was a bit boomy and mushy."

Sort of what I was trying to say... boomy and mushy equates to not really there in my mind... but anyways, I was just passing on random thoughts.

All the best,
mike

Hey, I appreciate all of the responses and find them very helpful in resolving an issue.

Great News!!!