Mix Levels Question

I know I've seen this discussed before in the forums but I can't remember where.
 
What levels (Peak and RMS) do you strive for in a complete mix without applying compression or limiting on the master bus?
 
Thanks.

Are you suggesting -12 on the master - period; or prior to other effects - compress., limiting, etc or mastering? If you bring it up at another stage -(Mastering for example) what final level do you then bring it up to?

Thanks for sharing the info.....(suggestion was a lousy way to put it I guess).
 
Thanks

I need to start paying more attention to the science behind mixing & mastering. But something I recently read has made me rethink everything I've known. It was published by a well known producer--and I forgot the most important part, his name--where he describes 3 types of production:

1) The mix is done with little or no compression, keeping levels relatively low so that the mastering engineer has a lot to work with

2) The mix is done with lots of compression on individual tracks but the master bus is left alone (high levels), and the mastering engineer only does minor tweaks.

or the one that changes all the rules...

3) No compression (or very light) on the tracks, no compression on the master. The burden of getting good levels falls on the mixing engineer who has to automate his butt off. If done correctly, there is no need for mastering except for consistency with other tracks on the album. With this method, you work with the full dynamic range; thus try to normalize the mix to the highest levels possible.

It's #3 that I'm experimenting with now, and so far it sounds better unmastered than anything I've done before, even with mastering. It's also the most work I've ever put into mixing in my entire life

Anyway, I guess my point is you should choose which of the 3 basic methods you & your mastering engineer are comfortable with, then go for it.

I'm also doing parallel compression on the drums which, for whatever reason, gives me punchier drums sounds with lower levels. Without parallel compression I had higher transients in the snare for example, which caused issues in Ozone with my goal of -6db average before mastering.

 
Can you recommend somewhere that I can learn how to do this in Sonar?
 
Thanks.

Dave King

I'm also doing parallel compression on the drums which, for whatever reason, gives me punchier drums sounds with lower levels. Without parallel compression I had higher transients in the snare for example, which caused issues in Ozone with my goal of -6db average before mastering.

 
Can you recommend somewhere that I can learn how to do this in Sonar?
 
Thanks.

 
 
Dave - I'm doing parallel compression in Addictive Drums, but you can do it easily in Sonar like Beagle said.  I prefer not to use parallel compression on my cymbals, but some people do.  You basically compress the hell out of the drums in the 2nd buss.  You can also add distortion, saturation, or other weird effects too.  And then you just bring up the volume of the 2nd buss to taste.  Here is a video example:
 
http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=parallel%20compression&rls=com.microsoft:*&oe=UTF-8&startIndex=&startPage=1&rlz=&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wv#

personally I only do it for the kick and sometimes to the snare and/or hat or ride depending on the sound I want.  toms wouldn't be bad for that either, but again it depends on the sound you want.

the problem with 'stray' peaks, from any source, that go near 0db, is that when you decide you DO want your material louder than your premastered stereo mix, you WILL be chopping off all of those peaks with brick wall limiting, which WILL add some crunch and distortion to your final sound.

still always better to leave more headroom on mixdown, than you think you really need.

Dave - I'm doing parallel compression in Addictive Drums, but you can do it easily in Sonar like Beagle said. I prefer not to use parallel compression on my cymbals, but some people do. You basically compress the hell out of the drums in the 2nd buss. You can also add distortion, saturation, or other weird effects too. And then you just bring up the volume of the 2nd buss to taste. Here is a video example: http://video.google.com/v...&hl=en&tab=wv#

 
Very nice.  I'm working on a tune in which I'm trying to get a Motown feel.  So, I think this may be very helpful.  Thanks!