Mix/Master Question....

NOTE: I'm an amateur.

I get the flexibility my lacking skills require by the following.

I have the mastering VST (Ozone4) disabled on the Master Bus. Now and then I enable it to make sure I'm not doing anything really stupid (for example to check mono compatibility).
When I think I got the mix ok, I bounce the mix on a stereo track in the same project, archive all the mix-tracks and start "mastering". If a problem like the one you describe occurs, I just do another mix and continue.

Sometimes I make 5-6 downmixes before I start mastering when I'm unsure of what is best. Then I master them all, burn to CD and go test-auditioning on different sound systems.

Musikman


Hi,

I'm using Sonar Producer 8.5.3.  

Just wondering if anyone would mind sharing any mix/master tips.  ...It would seem the "normal" or "basic" course would be to apply any regular audio effects (ie...Waves, CW, etc...) to whatever tracks need which effect, then mix levels and bounce all to one stereo track, then send that track through a mastering suite like T-Racks that has your basic comp, limiter, and eq. This usually works well for me, but in some instances I may get everything to sound great except for one track, like maybe bass or guitar for example.  The compression and eq might really enhance the vocals and drums tracks, but blanketing the whole mix with that same setting might cause the guitar or bass to not sound so good.

Or another example of this dilemma would be if compression is used on the drum track beforehand, then I'd be doubling up on the compression if the drums are contained in a final mix by running that track through a mastering suite again.  So if the drums are sounding great before doing a final mixdown, do you leave the drums out of the final mix and mixdown everything else and run that track through the master suite, then bring the mastered track back into Sonar to re-mix with the drum track?

I realize that depending on the music at hand,  there are a wide variety of possible scenarios, but does anyone have a different method that has proven to work well in most situations?  I tend to listen a lot to the mix and make adjustments as I go along, there is a method to my madness that probably only I can understand, lol, but I'm sure there are many others here who have figured out a few tricks.  I'm curious to hear some of them!  Thanks, much appreciate the feedback, and I hope the replies that follow will also be helpful to others here who read them.


MM  

Hi Musik,
 
Everything you've mentione above is along the right lines. The issue is with compression. If you hear the mastering compressor messing something up, you're using too much of it. The mastering compression mastering engineers like myself use, is very light and is used to control the little peaks and valleys we may have created when we did the eq curve. I NEVER push a compressor too much during the mastering stage. As a matter of fact, I never go more than a 2:1 ratio for most things.
 
The idea is to get your mix as great as you can before you master it of course. Try not to over-compress during the mix stage if you can help it. Try to use automation and carve eq's accordingly to even things out before you rely heavily on a compressor to do the job for you. It's also important to know when to cut, when to boost. Just about always, try to cut first. If you feel the need for more low end, try removing some highs first and vice versa.
 
As for the mastering stage, there's more to it than just sending it to T-Racks. LOL! When we master something, we manually level the audio and control transient peaks. These peaks, if not controlled properly, will be what stops your mix from being nice and loud. For example, if you have a vicious snare crack in a tune to where you see it in your wave form riding higher above everything else, that snare is going to be your cap on that mix. When you make it loud, use a limiter or whatever you do, that snare peak is going to be the loudest thing in the mix and could restrict the mix from breathing as well as having the proper dynamics. An ME is going to level that and take care of it manually so that the mix is more even and doesn't have this cracking snare all over the place. He'll take care of that peak once and for all so that the entire mix will have a better and more consistent over-all volume.
 
The limiting stage is where we usually gain volume...but until we get to that point, volume changes in the material are subtle and may go through a few phases of leveling before we put that limiter on as the final touch. For example, when I master something for a client, I beg them to send it to me at -3dB peak. This leaves me a little headroom to make my alterations. But I don't just jack up the volume from -3dB to -0.1dB instantly. It's a gradual process that takes place to get it there. Gain a little, lose a little...but it all remains consistent. When we add a compressor, we check that it doesn't raise or lower the volume. Each effect we put on a mix is checked for this. The idea is for the effects to process, not raise or lower the volumes just yet. We'll do that later on. :)
 
As far as your drum question, no you have to mix everything all at once. Like I said, if your mastering compression is affecting the drums or other things, you're either using too much at the mastering stage or you used too much at the mix-down stage. As soon as you hear that snare drum lose its crack, you're compressing or limiting too much. That's usually the first thing that suffers....the attack of the snare.
 
Another thing to keep in mind that I stress to people is, when you press "export" in Sonar...that means you have exhausted everything and the mix sounds as good as you can get it, right? It's very difficult to bring this mix into an editor and master it now. How do you know what to listen for? You recorded and mixed this on the same set of monitors and have heard it 3000 times...talk about possibly missing the obvious!? LOL! I'm not saying it can't be done nor am I trying to discourage you...I'm just trying to keep you focused as to what *could happen* as well as how it could cloud your vision of the tune. So try everything in moderation and try to stay away from loads of compression at the mastering stage...watch stereo wideners as well, and don't try to make things too loud using limiting. Trust me when I tell you...a properly mixed and mastered song at a sane level will blow a master that was mastered for extreme volume out of the water when done the right way. A super loud master will only go so loud and then it will distort. A nice clean master done the right way will maintain clarity and go louder and louder until your volume is all the way up. The super loud master is going to stop at some point and break up. So just be careful, stay focused and have fun. Best of luck. :)
 
-Danny

Guitarhacker


I'll insert my mastering plug...Ozone 4 into my master buss and open with a preset that I have developed and tweeked as a starting point.  By doing this early in the game, I know exactly what it will sound like if I export it at any point.  

Herb, I used to advocate for this method, but now I am not so sure.
 
I found that making the basic tracks sound decent prior to including Ozone on the Master Bus works better for me lately.
 
 

Duplicate post

You might want to refer to my earlier post about this book......way good read on all this stuff with a training DVD:
 
"Big Studio Secrets for Home Recording and Production" by Joe Dochtermann

MakeShift


Danny,

This is great stuff, man.  I am always amazed at how you continually find time to share this wealth of information.  When I see that you have replied to some ones post, I its always the first place I go.  You need to write a book sometime, or...some one needs to compile your answers into a book.  You just have a way of explaining things that are easy to understand to the common man.  Your video's are n't bad either!  

As you know, I don't post a whole lot, but I have hung around here for a long time.  Any way, I just wanted to say thank for all the info that you share.

Hi MakeShift,
 
Thanks so much for the kind words. It's nice to know some of this stuff I share is appreciated. I just share what I've learned, tried, tested and experienced on my own. Some things I say may sound like I'm out of my tree and I'll be the first to admit that. LOL! But, if something works or doesn't work, I usually talk about it.
 
As for the book thing, I've thought about it a few times have have even been approached. It may be something I do at some point, but for now I'm just happy to share stuff with others in hopes it helps them out. I have my own audio forum where I get pretty deep with some of this stuff. We have a nice little group there...nice and small, but it's perfect because I can spent time with people kinda like a one-on-one class. You're welcome to join us if you ever decide to. :) It's free, but I'll need to authorize the account. Not sure how much longer I'll have power over here in NJ with that monster "cane" coming this way...but some of that stuff on my site will make for excellent candle-light reading if you're on the East Coast. :)
 
Musik: Good to meet you too! Is there a question somewhere in that comment you posted? LOL! Just kidding. :)
 
Sonar's mastering tools: No, in my opinion, they aren't the best choices but I do use the 64 EQ quite a bit.
 
Limiters: Ok, picture it like this. We have a package we are going to wrap. If a 6 year old wraps the package, it's going to look bad...stuff sticking out, it will probably be bigger than it needs to be...a bit sloppy, unprofessional. Think of that as your mix without a limiter.
 
Next we have someone that works at Macy's wrap that package that probably had to learn to do it correctly through employee training. This package is going to be nice and tight, and appear smaller yet will look incredible and have a pro appearance. This is your mix with a limiter.
 
With me so far? Ok good. :) Now, the present the 6 year old wrapped has stuff sticking out and is over-sized. The stuff sticking out would be the equal to your transients sticking out. The over-size appearance is your low end frequencies going all over the place. The louder you try to make this mix, the more it will distort because everything is running amuck without any control. Follow me?
 
On the present the pro wrapped from Macy's, it's nice and tight. The transients are controlled...the bass obesity is controlled. The more you control these things, the louder and more clear your mix will be. So when we apply a limiter, yes, it limits just as you said...but it also packages things up to where once they are tight due to the threshold, release and attack, you can then pump the output on the limiter and it will make it loud in a good way. The problem here is people over use this effect for the sake of loud. We can make things incredibly loud with limiting and here's why.
 
You know how I talked about the tight packaging, right? Ok, the tigher we make that package...the more the wave form looks like this:
 
███████
 
███████
 
Now, it matters not how loud that wave form is...but the thing to take note of, is there are no transients. This is what that St. anger album from Metallica kinds looked like. When you remove the transients totally that are supposed to give you dynamics, this packages the mix up really tight...but in a bad way. We want to see som dips and fluctuations, not a square box. This is what is considered bad limiting to *me* but quite a few get off on this sort of thing. So the limiter does limit, but it also says "ok, no transients are going to go over this certain threshold" so when you turn it up, it gets loud and shouldn't distort unless you really jump on the limiter and over-use it.
 
Now, if your eq's are off and you have mud or too much bass, it doesn't matter how much limiting you use. It's going to sound bad and it's going to distort...period. The key is having a happy medium. The best bet is to make the mix sound as pristine as possible before you even try to master it. The next phase is to decide if you can even master it at all because it's tough to be subjective even with good ears. But knowing how to go about it is the key or you can totally mess up your mix in the mastering stage.
 
Presets: Whether it be T-Racks, Ozone or individual plugs, presets are a no no for most situations and here's why. When they were created, they didn't have your material in front of them. They didn't have your monitors, your gear, you instrumentation or your engineer mentality. They may have had room tuning, they may have created the presets from a laptop, they may have created them with a 5k monitor rig and all the right stuff...you just never know. I will admit, some are "fair" at best, starting points. Most of the compressor settings for mastering are very close in attack, release, and ratio. But you have to control the threshold at all times.
 
A preset eq: Absolutely ludicrous and a complete waste of time.
 
Reverb in mastering plugs: Uggh...don't do it...just don't. There are times when we may need to enhance the room atmosphere a little, but you have to be careful here...like big time careful.
 
Wideness: The more separated your mix is, the less tight it will be. Too much of this can bring on weird phasing...use this in moderation only when you have to.
 
As for your input/output dials, think of them like a rack effect. Adjust the input first to a nice clean level, then adjust the output last as the main level. You may need to tweak the input a bit if you notice over-drive as that's most times where the drive will come from. Hope this helps..best of luck to you. :)
 
-Danny

You're quite welcome Musik. :) Man, that nice island in your avatar looks so peaceful...makes me want to go there instead of sit here and ride out this monster hurricane coming my way!

Hahaha, yeah I try my best to get this stuff across to others in a language they can understand. You should hear me talk in "frequency" language. That's a good lesson. LOL! But I think the key to getting through to someone is to not attempt to blind them with intelligence, science or intense theory. Seriously, that is one thing that totally turned me off about this field when I have read books by super smart dudes. They bring in all this unnecessary crap to the point where you get completely lost! It's like teaching a kid in school. If you don't keep it interesting or you don't have the ability to reach him/her, they don't learn. It's that simple. When I create a recording lesson for someone, they have no choice but to learn because it's always a fun lesson. Me and my goofy NJ/Philly accent, making mistakes, calling myself names, it's pure and honest comedy right within the lesson. It makes you want to learn...you see that I'm human, you see that I make mistakes and click the wrong things sometimes or question why I did something. I really think all that stuff is important and totally kills some scientist type with perfect grammar in a monotone voice trying to inspire you to learn. For some people, they enjoy that stuff. For others, it can be a total downer and quite uninspiring.

As for your bass issue, there are a few things to look at here. The first would be, which do you trust more, your car or your studio monitors? When you play something from a pro band in your studio, does it sound the same in your car? This is where you have to really listen to things.

Now, if you find yourself going out to your car with a pen and paper to take notes on what you hear that you will change when you get back into your studio, you've already lost, my friend. If what you hear in your car is not what you hear in your room, we need to fix that like....yesterday. One of the toughest things to judge in this field is bass. We don't know whether to bring up the low end or just raise the bass track, right?

You would if you had the right stuff going on in your room. I sincerely believe (though quite a few will fight me on this to the death) that a sub is a necessity along with some sort of room tuning. I use the IK Multimedia ARC plugin for my room/monitor tuning and have a huge thread about it in the software forum if you are ever interested. Just about everyone that has tried it has reported back incredible results with it. Those who tried it and failed....I think didn't set it up right because it is quite extensive and it matters how you set it up for it to work right. If you half ass it, that's how your sound will sound.

But moving on, the amount of bass you hear in your studio should be the amount of bass you trust at all times. You should never have to rely on a car stereo to make up your mind about something. Though the car test is important, it doesn't mean a thing even if something sounds good in your car. I have a killer system in my car...but even when things sounded good in there, they sounded like absolute arse in a pro studio with good monitors. So you really can't trust a car totally. When can you trust a car system?

Uusually when you put something in and all the eq's are flat and it still sounds like a million bucks. I never use the eq in my car other than for the radio or certain albums that need a bit of work. Lots of the new stuff seems bass heavy to me and I really don't enjoy 50Hz rattling my speakers for rock music. So I'll curb the low end a bit. But for my stuff, if it doesn't sound just like it does in my studio in my car with no eq, I know I messed up. The key to all of this is to make it sound as accurate as possible in your room....this way your mixes will sound good everywhere just about. Even on a crap system. So to hear the right amount of bass, you need the right tools in order to hear it correctly to make the right calls. When you feel bass more than you hear it, this is a sign that your bass is lacking identity.

To fix this, you need to find where the sweet spot of low end in that bass should be. From there once you find it, you have to control it and see what else may need to be done to it. Most times, bass is not loaded with mids. When it does have mids, it can sound boxy and will lack impact. You can often times get away with high passing the best bass frequency (once you find what that is) and then adding a bit of clack to the bass from like 1.5k to about 3k. This usually fixes most bass issues, but it depends on what you're dealing with. For example, and this never seems to fail me for myself...but most of my bass guitar sounds that I come up with here, just need a high pass at 80Hz with a Q of about 1.2-1.4. If I want a bit more low end, I'll increase that Q to 1.7 because 1.6 in high pass mode is pretty much uncolored/untouched.

Sometimes I will leave the high pass at a lower Q and expand on 100-120Hz with a tight Q to further enhance good low end. But see, it all depends on what type of sound you are going for. Here's something helpful that I have always lived by.

If you want a boomier bass guitar, go for a clickier kick drum. This way they will never fight with each other. If you want a boomier kick drum, you need a bass with a bit more clack to it at about 2.5k or so. This allows them to work as a team. For some songs, you may want the kick drum to be the dominating bass instrument. Other times, you want that 70's sounding bass guitar to be the "ooom" within the mix. Keep in mind, when I say clicky kick or clacky bass, I'm not saying you leave the low end out of them. LOL! I'm saying, you will need more control over which low end frequencies you decide to accentuate and you'll want a bit more presence in these types of sounds.

As for the reverb thing, yeah, it's best to apply it to individual tracks. One thing of note on that which I think you'll also find as a cool tip. Whenever you bring in a stereo verb or any stereo effect, by default it is hard panned. The more stereo effects you bring in, the more it would be like hard panning your instruments in your mix. So make sure you always use some sort of control on your stereo effects so they stay in their lanes with the instruments they are enhancing. The Sonitus Phase plug is great for this as it will control how wide the stereo effects will go in your mix. Also, be sure to always eq your effects. They are as important as eqing your instruments and this will stop them from mudding things up.

For example, let's take a snare drum as our test subject. When we put a stereo verb on a send and route it to our snare, that snare crack is going to go from left to right...the equal to 100L/100R. We don't want our snare to smash out that far. So we need to control the spread on that effect because we want the snare crack to remain in between our floor tom and our hats. So if we grab the Sonitus Phase plug and put it in after the verb, we now have control over that. The default setting for "width" on the Sonitus Phase is 100...which is equal too 100L/R. So for us to make that snare sound like it's splashing out between our hats and floor tom, we'll need to tighten the width up. The lower the number you choose for the width, the tigher the snare crack/verb will be. You'll probably find that something like 60% will work. From there, you can also eq the verb so that it doesn't hiss like a snake at you or you could remove a little low end in it so it doesn muffle out or give the snare the simulation of sounding too bassy...understand? The same if you used a chorus effect....you want to tighten it up a bit and also eq it because when a chorus dips down, it can bring in some unwanted bass that can turn to mud. Now for some things like maybe a vocal, you can allow it to spread if you want. There are no rules really, but the more you control this stuff, the better your mixes will sound. Best of luck Musik, I hope some of this stuff helps. :)

-Danny

A few answers below. :)
 
A friend of mine once told me that after you get a mix you’re satisfied with out of the monitors, listen to it on a small but decent quality boom box-sized stereo with the eq set flat across. If it sounds good there then it will likely transfer well across other media. Don’t know how much truth there is to that, but it kinda makes sense in a practical way.
 
This is correct. Sometimes those little boom boxes really make a difference. I use one all the time here as well as several sets of speakers. Consumer monitors on my pc, small Tascam monitors that look like car speakers, Adam A-7's, NS-10's, Radio Shack Opimus, Event, Tannoy...the more you have, the better you hear how you're doing on other systems.

Couple of things I wasn’t completely clear on though….Not sure exactly what you mean by high passing the best bass frequency? I think I understand what you mean as far as the 2.5k frequency, you’re talking about raising the 2.5k frequency on the eq to get the clack, right?
 
Correct on the bass clack. What I meant on the high pass thing was this. Let's say I have a bass guitar that doesn't need much eq work. It sounds good as it was printed but I have a bit of low end that I need to curb. I find out this low end is at 80Hz by sweeping through my frequencies. 80Hz also is the best choice for low end on this particular bass sound, but we still need to control it as well as those below it. So I'll high pass there to curb it. Now there are other areas in which I may need to boost to get some GOOD low end back. I may use another eq due to how it colors the sound. So let's say I use a Sonitus eq just to curb the 80Hz, and I may throw on a UAD Helios to sweeten up other aspects of the bass due to how this particular eq colors it. I could use the Sonitus and play with different frequencies which I do DO at times, but there are times when the Helios or a Harrison eq are used along with the Sonitus. I just love how the Sonitus high passes and low passes things and allows you to control them using the Q. With some eq's, once you high pass (like Waves Q-10) you no longer have Q control that will enhance the low end. Once it high passes, that's it other than frequency selection. The Sonitus allows you to control the Q.
 
 
I also didn’t fully understand when you said “Sometimes I will leave the high pass at a lower Q and expand on 100-120Hz with a tight Q to further enhance good low end.” You saying all this is done just with a track eq effect, or running a high pass filter as well separately?
 
See answer above. There are 2 eq's in place. One to high pass, the other to enhance.
 
 
 
What about those bass patches in the vst synths, aren’t most of those eq’d by someone with good ears before they’re processed? I sometimes wonder if I’m ruining the sound by re-equalizing it. But to be on the safe side, most times I just call each case separately and try to rely on my ears.
 
Bass patches in vst synths? I'm not quite sure what you mean by that. If you mean they are already processed correctly from the factory, the answer is no they are not. You will always have to eq them. Most of them are loaded with bass to showcase what the preset can do. Leaving it alone usually results in something too boomy.

Interesting tip on the reverb, definitely an angle I never would have thought of. Sounds like the Sonitis phase plug is a handy tool, I’ll have to check into that, I don’t know much about it. Tbh, I don’t think I’ve ever used it. So I would load a Sonitis phase plug into the same track as my reverb, and would I load one into every track that I use reverb on? Or, are you talking just on the final mix track as a whole? I do have some waves fx plugs, so I end up using those somewhere for something most of the time because I’m getting familiar now with the controls on a few of them.
 
Yep it is a handy tool. I insert one after each effect to control the width. There are other methods you can use to do this, but I like the Sonitus because of the control and ease of use. You can also use the Waves S-1 Imager or Matrix if you have them. They give you a bit more control. I use them as well at times.

I’ll have to check out your site (if Irene doesn’t take my power out). I would also like to get in on a class of some kind over there. I definitely need to learn more about this stuff, just only have so much time I can allot to it. If I can just learn a little every week and put some of the methods into practice, I’ll at least be making steady progress in the right direction. Hopefully my mixes and masters will get better sounding too! Thanks again man, this is great stuff, much appreciated! We should check in here after the storm has passed, just to make sure everyone made it through ok. I’m sure there are other people here who live on the East Coast, hopefully everyone will just get a little wet and that will be the extent of it.
 
Sure, feel free to check me out any time. The forum is quite cool and if you ever need any lessons on anything, I do video lessons personally that will fit your needs so you learn exactly what you want to learn. You're quite welcome...I'm glad you're learning a few things here and enjoying them as well. I hope you're ok from the storm. I posted my situation with it in the coffee house...but we're all ok here. Take care Musik, it's been great chatting with you. Best of luck. :)
 
-Danny

Wow you JUST got power back? Sheesh! Sorry to hear that but I'm glad all is well on your end. Glad some of this stuff helped you out...or at least planted some seeds. :) Best of luck with the clean-up....I had to do quite a bit of that myself so I know the drill.

-Danny