SeveredVesper
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Mixing: Headphones or Monitors?
1st issue: I can't have acoustics in my work area.
2nd issue: I want to have better mixes.
3rd issue: What do i use? Headphones or Monitors?
4th issue: What models in particular?
Budget: Cheap is good, but it doesn't really matter, i can save up.
Thanks.
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35mm
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Re:Mixing: Headphones or Monitors?
2009/12/06 06:06:12
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You can't mix on headphones. So you need monitors. What model of monitor? Well there are many out there, and people will likely recommend the ones they use. Avoid cheap, nasty ones. The better your monitoring, the better your mixes. Personally I mainly use Alesis M1 mk 2 active monitors, as they have a good flat response which extends into the bass nicely. They are also inexpensive.
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MIDIMINDS
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Re:Mixing: Headphones or Monitors?
2009/12/06 06:30:31
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It disturbs me when people give pat (and incorrect) answers like "you can't mix on headphones".
Here's the deal, you can mix in HPs. However, you'll need to understand what pyschoacoustic effect headphones have while you're mixing. Additionally, you'll need to understand how that translates in a "live" monitoring environment. Mixing in headphones is an isolated "space" that REALLY requires some getting used to. If you do choose to mix on HPs, get the best quality that you can afford with an extended and flat frequency response. (Many models have hyped low/mid/highs based on the target purchaser.)
The ideal situation is to mix with monitors (near-field) in a treated space. If you absolutely can't have "acoustics in [your] work area", then you really need to understand what the responsiveness of your room will be relative to your mixes. (Spend LOTS of time listening to well-recorded, well-mixed records in that space and on the monitors you choose.) Further, you may want to look into temporary acoustic treatments that you can assemble/dismantle as needed. Whatever you do, be clear on what your "sweet spot" is and, in an untreated environment, try to limit that area to where you are sitting (mix position) while mixing/editing.
As far as particular models and gear shoot-outs, I'd recommend a trip over to Gearslutz.com. They spend huge chunks of their lives quibbling over the tech specs and features.
Good luck...
Jay
MIDIMINDS
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35mm
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Re:Mixing: Headphones or Monitors?
2009/12/06 07:56:22
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It disturbs me when people give pat (and incorrect) answers like "you can't mix on headphones".
Well technically you can mix on headphones, and even mix on a mobile phone if you really want to, but while headphones are good for checking a mix and the stereo image, they are near on useless for creating an accurate mix that will translate well to all mediums and listening devices, which is why we use monitor speakers. This statement is not disturbing or incorrect!
Nearfield monitors do not require as much room treatment as room monitors, as the sound has a more direct path to your ears.
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MIDIMINDS
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Re:Mixing: Headphones or Monitors?
2009/12/06 08:50:09
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35mm - Just so you understand, I'm not one of those "let's get into a pissing contest" kind of guys. I simply believe (and know) that in most cases, there is more than one way to skin a cat. So the quite limited response you initially gave was inaccurate and, IMO, misleading. I've done commercial mixes SOLELY in cans. Albeit, I used Redline's Monitor plug-into help me better understand how they would translate in an open air monitoring environment. My aim is demonstrate that quality mixes CAN and have been done using HPs in many, many cases. In the case of the OP, I'd actually recommend that he/she begin their mixes in HPs (using something like Redline Monitor) and complete them on monitors. Having the ability to A/B the mixes between the two would be a useful tool since the mixing space is untreated. I'm sure we can agree on that much!  Cheers
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SeveredVesper
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Re:Mixing: Headphones or Monitors?
2009/12/06 10:03:12
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Thanks guys. What are some good Near-field monitors?
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MIDIMINDS
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Re:Mixing: Headphones or Monitors?
2009/12/06 10:15:40
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There are MANY dependencies. Most come down to price vs. response vs. passive/active configurations.
IMHO, active monitors are the way to go if you don't have a lot of know-how or the money to invest in reference amps and such. That being said, I personally prefer the Event Studio Precision line. (I own the ASP8s and Event Trias.) For a smaller space, I'd suggest the ASP6s, though. Otherwise, the 6" or 8" Mackies are also good. If more money, you can get a Blue Sky set up.
As a starting point, take the ASP6 or Mackie624 as a baseline and shop "around" them for better or worse quality and/or price.
Not very definitive, I know. But I hope it helps a bit...
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vinski
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Re:Mixing: Headphones or Monitors?
2009/12/06 14:42:23
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For those who don't believe than you can mix on Headphones check out the SPL Phonitor. Looks good but not cheap.
Pentium D 2.8, SP3 2GB Ram, Nvidia Geforce 8600 GT HP vs19e, Samsung Synchmaster 2032BW Edirol FA-66 Evolution MK-225C Sonar 8.3.1
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MIDIMINDS
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Re:Mixing: Headphones or Monitors?
2009/12/06 15:12:23
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Middleman
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Re:Mixing: Headphones or Monitors?
2009/12/06 16:18:11
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So your are recommending a person learning to get better mixes to mix on headphones? That is a recipe for frustration. You can mix on headphones but only after you have spent time on some decent monitors and then learn the what your headphones take away from or add to the source. It's always a guessing game with HPs but if you know their limitations, you can work around them and create a decent mix on them .
I suggest monitors. JBLs, as expensive as you can afford, would be my recommendation but I use Events ASP8s which are also very good. Regardless, go for a minimum of 8 inch speakers as your mains. If you can also pick up a cheap pair of BX5as from M-Audio, they are a good secondary reference for upper midrange and they are cheap i.e. $199.
Then take a CD which you are trying to emulate and put it side by side with your tracks inside your DAW software. That's the quickest way to learn what the pros have done in terms of sonic image. Study where they pan instruments, what's in the middle versus the sides. Subtle delays and reverbs. Then read everything you can about EQ approaches for various instruments.
Great mixes, in the end, are not only having the right gear but having developed your ears to know what changes need to be made and when.
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MIDIMINDS
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Re:Mixing: Headphones or Monitors?
2009/12/06 17:21:38
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Middleman
So your are recommending a person learning to get better mixes to mix on headphones?
Nope. Please read where I state that the ideal is to mix on near-fields WITH acoustic treatment.
I suggest monitors. JBLs, as expensive as you can afford, would be my recommendation but I use Events ASP8s which are also very good. Regardless, go for a minimum of 8 inch speakers as your mains. If you can also pick up a cheap pair of BX5as from M-Audio, they are a good secondary reference for upper midrange and they are cheap i.e. $199.
No contest here. Monitors are the way to go. But to check you mixes on cans - especially using specialized plugs-ins/hardware is CERTAINLY worth the time to do and learn.
Then take a CD which you are trying to emulate and put it side by side with your tracks inside your DAW software. That's the quickest way to learn what the pros have done in terms of sonic image. Study where they pan instruments, what's in the middle versus the sides. Subtle delays and reverbs. Then read everything you can about EQ approaches for various instruments.
Agreed - Stated (not so clearly) in previous post.
Great mixes, in the end, are not only having the right gear but having developed your ears to know what changes need to be made and when.
100% correct. No sane person could argue this point!
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KenJr
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Re:Mixing: Headphones or Monitors?
2009/12/06 18:26:38
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bleh...I use monitors (JBL 4328's) but I can mix on cans as well. I'd never finalize something without giving it a runthrough on the mains, but it's entirely possible to create a good mix on cans, I've done it.
Now, that said...you need a pretty nice set of cans (Grado RS-1's through a UA 2192 for me) - open ear preferably and a decent quality DA unit / power to run them.
With most people listening to music w/ headphones and earbuds these days if you AREN'T at least running your mixes through that listening process before exporting then that's your own problem.
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Middleman
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Re:Mixing: Headphones or Monitors?
2009/12/06 19:42:53
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Midiminds, ok, then we are fairly in synch. I do agree headphones are a good reference check after the mix gets done on some speakers.
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MarlboroMan23
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Re:Mixing: Headphones or Monitors?
2009/12/07 00:58:48
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Thrillington
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Re:Mixing: Headphones or Monitors?
2009/12/07 01:08:33
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Beyer Dynamic DT770's. Great cans. Nothing wrong with saving up for something good. You'll appreciate them more!
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MIDIMINDS
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Re:Mixing: Headphones or Monitors?
2009/12/07 02:10:58
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Thrillington
Beyer Dynamic DT770's. Great cans. Nothing wrong with saving up for something good. You'll appreciate them more!
I have the DT770 Pro (250 ohm). Great set of cans. Worth the extra spend!
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SeveredVesper
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Re:Mixing: Headphones or Monitors?
2009/12/07 02:28:44
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By the way, about the Event ASP8 montiors exceed $1000 (Although i stated it doesn't matter, it's quite over my limits) and Event isn't available in my country (Philippines). And so i looked into the JBL website, and there is no pro audio section. Any more suggestions on monitors? Thanks alot guys, i wanna get myself a nice Christmas gift i won't regret spending on my earnings, hopefully.
post edited by SeveredVesper - 2009/12/07 02:30:13
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bitflipper
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Re:Mixing: Headphones or Monitors?
2009/12/07 11:37:59
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Miguel, it would be a mistake to spend $1k on monitors at this stage. You can make do with around $300-350. You should ideally also invest in a good pair of headphones. It's something every studio should have, and you can get decent cans for under $150. First of all, anybody who goes out and buys expensive monitors without first addressing the acoustics in the room is throwing money away. Acoustic treatments are a lot cheaper than speakers, and without them $2000 monitors won't do any better than $300 monitors. Second, it is entirely possible to do most of your mixing with headphones. It definitely adds some complications. Even though I have good monitors and acoustic treatments, I still do 90% of my mixing with headphones. It's because I share the house with others, some of whom go to bed early, and some who sleep late. Many, many hours of practice have gotten me to the point where I can get a mix on headphones that's almost there. Headphones introduce variables that make mixing a hit-and-miss proposition. They tend to compress the sound, leading you to think you have a more seamless blend than you really do. They are very uneven in their frequency response, which makes it very hard to judge EQ. They lack the natural blend of left and right, exaggerating stereo separation, making it hard to judge panning. You have to learn how to compensate for these factors, and for that you'll need speakers - or access to someone (e.g. a mastering studio) who does. Specific recommendations: Alesis M1 Active MkII (don't waste your time with the other Alesis products) Behringer Truth B2031A (don't be put off by the brand's bad reputation, these monitors are a great value) For headphones, my favorite for price/performance are the Audio Technica ATH-M50. Shop around for the best price. Most places charge $160 but you can find them for much less. Are these the finest headphones around? No. But you'll spend $300-400 or more to step up to the next level. BTW, Miguel, where in the P.I. are you located? My second home is in Pangasinan.
 All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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Monkey23
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Re:Mixing: Headphones or Monitors?
2009/12/08 10:37:53
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KenJr
With most people listening to music w/ headphones and earbuds these days if you AREN'T at least running your mixes through that listening process before exporting then that's your own problem.
I was thinking the same thing. These days, unless you're at a top level recording/mixing studio, mixing on headphones shouldn't be an afterthought, or a last minute reference, but a priority, just behind mixing on monitors. I write music with the intent of it being played on television or films, and even still I constantly check my mixes on headphones.
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spacey
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Re:Mixing: Headphones or Monitors?
2009/12/08 12:17:29
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SeveredVesper
1st issue: I can't have acoustics in my work area.
2nd issue: I want to have better mixes.
3rd issue: What do i use? Headphones or Monitors?
4th issue: What models in particular?
Budget: Cheap is good, but it doesn't really matter, i can save up.
Thanks.
1st issue: There are more factors than just "acoustics"- so what it your work area ( size, shape, workstation location)? 3rd issue: Both are very important. Both are worth saving for should you have to. 4th issue: I chose the JBL's because of room calibration. While some people believe it does nothing my experience has been very good with them. Opinions from others improved about my mixing and I think I hear very well with them. After trying many of the recommended phones I found Ultrasones's 750's to be my preference. They are sure worth your time to check out. Budget: I believe in this part of your DAW the best you can get may save you from having to re-invest. So saving for something you feel will last and perform may save you money in the long run. Choose wisely and good luck.
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35mm
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Re:Mixing: Headphones or Monitors?
2009/12/08 12:45:56
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I know midiminds spat his dummy out last time I mentioned this, but headphones really are not advantageous for mixing, with out also running the mix through monitors! As Bitflipper said, you do need to have some good headphones too, but if you only have enough money to start with one or the other, you'd do much better to start with monitors, and some room treatment - you probably only need "some".
As far as mixing for the headphone/ipod market goes, first and foremost I mix and master for the benefit of the audiophiles out there, as they are the ones who appreciate and are most critical about audio, and rarely listen to compressed MP3's on nasty little earbuds. I primarily mix on monitors, and use my trusted old AKG studio-monitor headphones that I've used for the past 18 years, for detail work - kind of like using a microscope, and I check the final mix on a range of sound systems, including an ipod with nasty little earbuds. While that final check is important for the ipod market, I believe the other steps for achieving the highest quality first and foremost are just as important, if not more so.
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MIDIMINDS
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Re:Mixing: Headphones or Monitors?
2009/12/09 06:23:48
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35mm
I know midiminds spat his dummy out last time I mentioned this, but headphones really are not advantageous for mixing, with out also running the mix through monitors! As Bitflipper said, you do need to have some good headphones too, but if you only have enough money to start with one or the other, you'd do much better to start with monitors, and some room treatment - you probably only need "some".
I'm just wondering if there is something lost in translation between "British English" and "American English" here or if you're just being unnecessarily rude and obnoxious. Don't let a low post count on the Cakewalk forums fool you. I've been writing/composing/producing/mixing for roughly 19 years and have worked with some VERY well-known (i.e. platinum-selling) artists. If I don't know what I'm talking about, I get paid pretty damned well to be ignorant. (Do a little research before you call someone out.) Suffices to say, today's technology affords project and home-based studio owners a wide array of choices in how they can go about producing HIGH-QUALITY material. If YOU choose to do things a certain way, then have at it. However, that does not summarily negate any other method known to be effective. BTW - If you go back and read my initial response it: - Addresses the problem the OP had (with the limitations he stated); not giving some advice about what SHOULD be done in an ideal world.
- Clearly advises that there are some challenges to doing things the way I propose.
- Doesn't presuppose some wild notion that he/I are mixing 'for the headphone/iPod market'
The old adage applies here: "When you say that something can't be done, you're right. YOU can't do it!"
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35mm
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Re:Mixing: Headphones or Monitors?
2009/12/09 10:09:54
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Midiminds, you stated earlier that you were not one to get into a pissing contest. Neither am I, but you do seem to be pissing competitively right now. I am simply trying to help the original poster by giving pertinent advice.
I too started working in the industry - engineering, producing, composing etc, about 20 years ago and have worked with big names too, for what it's worth. What difference does that make exactly? I don't think bringing that up will help the original poster in any way. Did you mention it to add competitive credibility to your comments, or is it an ego thing? I think you will find that you and I are not unique around here when it comes to pro audio experience, and if we could perhaps concentrate on passing some of that advice on to others with out turning it in to a cheap slagging/bragging match, the world would be a better place. No?
The OP wants to improve his mixes. I personally believe, and think that most others would agree, that mixing entirely through headphones isn't the best recommendation we can give the OP right now. He would still need to check his mix on monitors and other systems in any case, and as you have stated your self, it would present a number of challenges. He will find it more straight forward and have more success mixing through some good nearfield monitors right now, with just a bit of room treatment. I think that's good advice and that's the advice I'm giving whether you agree with me or not.
My comments regarding the ipod market were not aimed at you at all. Another poster brought the subject up so I added my penny's worth.
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dlogan
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Re:Mixing: Headphones or Monitors?
2009/12/09 10:26:48
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Since you've mentioned you're on a budget, but willing to save up, I think it would help to know what you'll be mixing?? Are you recording for a hobby and just want things to sound good for yourself and a few family and friends? Are you recording a demo trying to get gigs for your band, trying to get on the radio? I think we could give you better advice on what type of headphones / monitors would best fit your needs if we knew a little more info.
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MIDIMINDS
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Re:Mixing: Headphones or Monitors?
2009/12/09 10:27:03
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35mm
I think you will find that you and I are not unique around here when it comes to pro audio experience, and if we could perhaps concentrate on passing some of that advice on to others with out turning it in to a cheap slagging/bragging match, the world would be a better place. No?
Agreed!
The OP wants to improve his mixes. I personally believe, and think that most others would agree, that mixing entirely through headphones isn't the best recommendation we can give the OP right now. He would still need to check his mix on monitors and other systems in any case, and as you have stated your self, it would present a number of challenges. He will find it more straight forward and have more success mixing through some good nearfield monitors right now, with just a bit of room treatment. I think that's good advice and that's the advice I'm giving whether you agree with me or not.
Yeap. No difference in opinion there.
My comments regarding the ipod market were not aimed at you at all. Another poster brought the subject up so I added my penny's worth.
My misunderstanding. No harm, no foul.
I'm certainly not here to detract from productivity. We both have our methods, but agree on the fundamentals. Peace?
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munmun
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Re:Mixing: Headphones or Monitors?
2009/12/09 13:24:36
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At the risk of being a broken record on this forum you could consider IK Multimedia Arc with nearfields.
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35mm
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Re:Mixing: Headphones or Monitors?
2009/12/09 14:09:23
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MIDIMINDS
Peace?
"Peace"? No I completely disagree with that on the basis that peace is the opposite of "sound", and sound is what we work with. Peace would make no sense at all. Have a virtual hand shake instead. 
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JayJayVee
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Re:Mixing: Headphones or Monitors?
2009/12/09 15:26:21
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After reading this thread, I went over to the www.headphones.com site to look at some of the headphone specs they have over there. I looked at many of the frequency response plots that they have for each set of headphones. I was really surprised by the response of the Sennheiser HD-280 Pro headphones. The bottom octave response seems to be much more linear right down to the end compared to any other headphone, regardless of price. See here: www.headphone.com/headphones/sennheiser-hd-280-pro.php I don't know how they took these measurements or how these charts translate into perceived bass response, but it is interesting that these Sennheiser cans pretty much stand alone in that regard. (Use the pull-down menu under Headphones/Full Size) I do have a set of HD-280 Pros, and they do have full response in the bottom octave. On the other hand, I much prefer the mid and high frequency sound of the Sennheiser HD-580s that I have. JV
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bitflipper
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Re:Mixing: Headphones or Monitors?
2009/12/09 21:00:02
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I have HD-280Pros along with others. The Sennheisers are my day-to-day headphones, and the absolute favorite for vocal tracking due to their excellent isolation. They're also pretty comfortable. They are very detailed, which makes them especially useful for surgical editing.
Unfortunately, they are quite inadequate in terms of frequency response, making them unreliable for mixing except for initial rough mixes. No bottom, and very uneven over about 6KHz. Consequently, I try not to touch any EQ controls while using them.
I'll also listen to rough mixes on a bunch of headphones, including some old Sonys, a pair of lightweight Sony headphones, and a pair of high-end Shure in-ear monitors. It serves the same purpose as auditioning on different monitors: a good mix will sound at least OK on all of them.
When I'm ready to start judging overall EQ on a mix, I reach for the Audio-Technica ATH-M50s. When I've got the mix sounding good on them, I know I'm 90% of the way there. The last 10% is always done on speakers (ADAM P11-As + sub) at 85dbSPL.
It's always a surprise when I've got a really nice sound going on the headphones and then switch to the speakers and realize that I still have a long way to go!
All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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JayJayVee
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Re:Mixing: Headphones or Monitors?
2009/12/10 00:32:38
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Hey Bit- Yeah, I really like the Sennheiser HD-580s for extended listening and for editing audio. But you are right, I wouldn't use them to adjust any EQ at all. For example, last night I was using Adobe Audition 3 to remove broadband hiss from some old multitrack tape recordings. The HD-580s were perfect for that. I just am really unable to use the 580s to gauge the amount of low freq content in any audio I am mixing. I gave the wrong link there above- actually it is www.headphone.com which takes you to the HeadRoom site. Check out this comparison tool that they have there: http://www.headphone.com/learning-center/build-a-graph.php You can enter in any 4 headphones from their list and compare the technical performance specs that they have empirically measured in their lab. Put the HD-280 Pro in there and compare them to any other headphones using the 50Hz square wave test (which presumably will show that the headphones with the least LF distortion/best square wave reproduction will have the best low freq performance). Then enter in any other headphones, even the $1000 Ultrasones. You will visually see (like on an Oscope) why the HD-280 Pro has such good low freq performance. But that performance does fall apart the farther up the freq response graph you go. That's where I would switch to the HD-580s.... : > ) I am going to check out those Audio Technica headphones you recommended. I have never listened to them, but I keep hearing from various folks that they are a great value. I went on eBay and found brand new ones in several places for $89. JV
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