Mixing Metal... A couple of questions.

It is an interesting question Rain. I would like to say something about the drums though. I am sure Danny will have some useful things to say as well. What I find with modern metal recordings is how well the drums still cut through even though there might be a wall of guitars and so on.

Don't let them get lost! As a sound engineering teacher the biggest thing I find the most with the student mixes in this genre is the drums are usually lost at the end. That kick has to still cut through and be heard even in the dense passages and heavy guitars areas. It is about the tone of the drums and keeping them present not so much about level. They use samples a lot these days on the kick or in conjunction with the real kick.

Also the students tend to have too much bass with too much bottom end in it so yes there are bass areas you have to keep an eye on too. But take the drums away or let them get too low and you will end up with a wimpy sounding mix. There needs to be a good balance in the bottom end of both the guitars and the bass I think to get this sounding the best.

I realize I might sound overly confident in my ability to mix drums. Truth is that, at this stage at least, I'm still working w/ Superior Drummer, so, basically, something that's already polished up, nicely recorded and all. 

I probably won't be as confident when I have to mix everything from scratch in its raw form when/if that happens. ;)

But then again, it often seems like the majority of the online resources tend to focus on drums. When the focus shifts to other instruments like guitar or bass, it's more often than not in the context of a pop song or such, where they aren't so prominent. 

Hi Rain-

I personally don't listen to very much metal with female vocals. However, some good references for just quality mixes IMHO are listed here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andy_Wallace_(producer)  . I don't like them all, but he doesn't have the over compressed over-produced sound of the late eighties.



You didn't mention what sources from your past you might like. Also, do you have any samples of your material?


I've spent years perfecting (without attaining) kick drum in a variety of contexts. One thing that is overlooked and works really, really well is to use different beaters for different material. I use wood beaters for metal, and thus I don't need to EQ as much as when I use felt. It cuts better without the cheesy 80 + click sound.


Just my two cents.


Bets o' luck.

I don't personally do metal but I found these articles from SoS to be very interesting and deal with some aspects in depth. 
http://www.soundonsound.c...v09/articles/metal.htm
http://www.soundonsound.c...9/articles/metalII.htm
http://www.soundonsound.c...ticles/metalvideos.htm
http://www.soundonsound.c...rticles/metalaudio.htm

Rain - you mentioned Andy Wallace.  I am totally into his work.  My absolute favorite is the way he handles bass guitar and kick on the first two Linkin Park albums - Hybrid Theory and Meteora.  He gets a very deep full bass sound in the 30-45hz range while the kick is around 50hz.  There is no mud in the low end and it is so tight.  This may not be "metal" but it is kind of a cross over.

Which kits in superior are you using?

I think a lot of metal these days sounds like crap. Especially the symphonic nonsense. You should try a mix of old school and new school. Like Janis Joplin meets Garbage type stuff for vocals. The newish bands I really like for clean, modern metal instrumentally are Necrophagist and Nile. Here are some links...

Necrophagist: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9RJXWxth5g

Nile: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcZlR05X0m4

I really don't like the pukey vocals of both of these bands and they are probably WAY over the top as far as playing style but these are the BEST modern metal production values I can offer you. The quality is so much more real and in your face than a lot of crap that's getting put out now. 

Just some thoughts. Cheers.

oh and didn't you get a nice little tube amp? Mess with that even on bass then bend that bugger in your DAW. 

I was listening to Surfing With The Alien recently and noticed what a good, clear sounding mix it was. Can't hurt to reference it from time to time for its guitar/bass clarity. 

Try listening to some Nightwish.

Might find some useful info here:

http://www.badmuckingfast.../sound/slipperman.html

Also, on drums, as Jeff says... don't let them get lost. More and more I'm using (enter McQ laughing) drumagog with the Invictus Metal Drums sound libraries on the Metal Drums. Originally I used EZDrummer's Metal Kits (which are stellar) on one CHB tune where I did the drums with my son but soon switched to Bluenoiseplugins Meatl1 kit. That was before I had drumagog.

For metal drum ref cds, you can't go wrong with Andy Sneap stuff.
Start with Arch Enemy's Doomsday Machine and Anthems of Rebellion (you ~did~ mention female vox...)


For hard rock bass, that's a 1-stop shop: Queensryche's Operation Mindcrime.


 

Hi Rain,

This is such a huge subject, I really don't know where to begin. However, if you gave me a piece of something you've done while giving me another example of what you would like it to sound like, I can usually nail things close enough to where they'd be acceptable.

My current favorite modern sounding bands will probably not be to your liking and they don't sport a female singer. However, I DO feel they are incredible as far as production in a modern metal type of way. It's not neo classical or anything like that or like Nightwish, but honest when I tell you, I'd definitely take some notes on the production for this stuff because it's pretty intense and they do it right in my opinion.

First, anything Evanescence in my opinion. The chick just rips and the band is modern sounding with a metal background. Not quite as progressive as you may want, but production to die for.

Next, Mike Portnoy from Dream Theater's new band Adrenaline Mob. Some really great metal sounds made for today's times that I've actually gotten myself from listening to this stuff. Killer video here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJkIy1IqBGc

Next is a band that did a Tommy Lee cover that I feel smokes the original. Very modern, yet with a hint of 70's done just perfect in my opinion. Production is killer considering it is kinda stripped down and not loaded with anything other than a few guitar layers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxnBfOig7Xo

This is just a super loaded question to be honest. Your bass sound in my opinion, depends on your kick drum...or vice versa. For me, if I use a clicky beater type kick, my bass can have more low end in it. If I use a kick with more thud, I can use a bass with more bass clack/percussive attack in it. Another thing to keep in mind is dropped tunings. When in drop tuning mode, you then have to rely a bit more on frequency selection that corresponds with the tuning you use and the notes you play...especially if you are tuned really low.

Wish I could help you more....and I can, I just need more info and actual examples in order to point you in the right direction.

-Danny

Danny is right: that Adrenaline Mob track has a nice round bass sound that doesn't sound obviously scooped or processed to fit into a small slice of the spectrum. Though the guitars at times do sound like they are direct from the late 80s, especially during the solos. 

However, the bass so dominates that Drills tune that I found it distracting.

Rain

sharke


Might find some useful info here:

http://www.badmuckingfast.../sound/slipperman.html

There is, indeed. 


The signal to noise ratio is pretty awful, though. Not that obscenities and curse words bother me all that much, but, a few paragraphs and all I feel like doing is smack him in the back of the head so that he'll cut to the chase and give us a break w/ the attitude. He seems like a knowledgable guy, but what a frickin' poseur...


Thanks though. I'll try to skim through.

Exactly my thoughts. The guy seems to be determined to limit his audience, and his writing style is a pain to read, but there's loads of snippets of advice in there. He could have said the same thing in maybe a quarter of the words, but there you go!

Man, I love this place! :)

I'll probably take an hour or two to shop for new music today, following you guys' recommendations. 

In fact, the more I think of it, I guess the "female vocalist" part is totally secondary for the moment - no vocals have been cut, I usually just record an instrumental demo and give my wife a chart w/ a very basic roadmap of where the melody could go, something to work around. Sort of "join the dots".

At the same time, I use those demos as a learning tool for me to figure out how to make it all work mix-wise, which in turns, affects the way I record and arrange to an extent.

I've avoided Nightwish for a couple of reasons - one being that I tend to absorb new influences in a blink - which is cool when you have to write jingles "in the style of x", but no so much when I'm working on my own stuff. So I'm making an effort to avoid any subconscious reference to them.

The comparison has always plagued my wife's ex-band, even if if people recognized that they were different. It's a territory where you'll always be judged against Nightwish as a reference. 

Funny thing is that my wife actually came this close to singing for them when the first singer quit. But the guys thought she might be a bit unstable or want to settle down and make babies, and jeopardize the band's future. So they hired Anette instead...  

To this day, I still don't really know what they sound like, except for the material my wife has recorded w/ them. And I've tried to keep it that way. But I'm guessing that what I'm woking on is probably a bit more "pop" - no intricate song structure. The classical influences is in the chord changes and voicings and melodies...

Danny, I may take you up on that offer. I know you offer consultation services, I'm just trying to figure out how early in the process is too early to ask for guidance. We're far from the actual mixing stage, but as I said, this doubles as a learning process for me.

Incidentally, the one song I'm working on does indeed rely on drop tuning. Just drop D, but I'm guessing that it still has an impact.