spindlebox
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Mixing Style Question
To my friends in the audio engineering community. I have 2 questions that are unrelated: 1) do you sometimes find a solution to a mixing problem when you're NOT in front of the console; i.e., do you find yourself chasing rabbits down holes during a mix, and then think of a solution later when you're not even listening? 2) do you think it is more important to make a band sound like they really do (IF they have excellent tone to begin with), versus keep up with trends? For example, the late '90s to recent overcompressed instruments, especially guitars and drums. Or do you think going for dynamics is the way to go. For the record, I am for making a band sound like they really do, based upon my excellent sound/tone caveat, and going for dynamics and depth. Go! EDIT: I suppose I should provide a sample of one of my favorite mixes I've done, so you can hear what I'm hearing: http://www.reverbnation.c...47200-blood-roses-2012
post edited by spindlebox - March 22, 13 10:20 AM
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AT
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Re:Mixing Style Question
March 22, 13 10:15 AM
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Spindle, I often come up with an idea while not working. Whether it is a solution or not gets sorted out back in the studio, ususally. I don't ususally try to keep up w/ trends. I suppose for some markets that is more important. I think the old and tried standard techniques using decent equipment works - capture what is there. Then, of course, in the mix you can play some, with old tricks or the lastest. But if a band is any good they should need spice, not corrective surgery to enjoy. As for my own likes - I like dynamics. that gives depth. When everything is pushed too hard, it squeezes all the air out of a recording. But a lot of that is arrangement where the space is designed in, not cut out later. @
https://soundcloud.com/a-pleasure-dome http://www.bnoir-film.com/ there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. 24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.
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spindlebox
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Re:Mixing Style Question
March 22, 13 11:21 AM
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Good, I'm glad to hear I'm of the same mindset for both, and not crazy about the first! My guitarist is especially crazy about the HUGE compressed sounds of the guitars, and really likes '80's hair metal too. So I'm dealing with that a bit. I was just listening to one of the local rock stations, that play current male-fronted metal, and some of that stuff just sounds horrible on the radio. I also refuse and am done with the loudness wars. Seriously. Bob Katz says it's unnecessary and I agree with him. Last album I had mastered I told them to forget about it. When I heard one of our songs on one of the local radio stations, it not only sounded just as loud as everything else, but had more definition. Radio stations compress it a second time. Anyway, if some of us don't take a stand against that swill it will just continue, and I for one, for my music personally, would rather have a body of work that stands the test of time and sounds great to the ears in 30 years.
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batsbrew
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Re:Mixing Style Question
March 22, 13 11:41 AM
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the strength of 'a band', is the way they sound together. if you start to force a 'sound' on the band, that is not there inherently, then you have homogenized the band. you have neutered the band. you have eliminated the thing that makes them unique. if a player has honed their sound and it happens to fit a genre, then capture that sound honestly. process it in the mix to be true to the engineering method, but don't clown-phuck a sound to fit a 'trend'. why? well, why would you want to sound like the next guy?
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bitflipper
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Re:Mixing Style Question
March 22, 13 11:52 AM
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Hi, Scott. It's been awhile! Good to see you back. 1) Yes, all the time. It's a well-documented psychological phenomenon: your subconscious is always working. It's the basis for many a self-help guru's spiel. I used to have a poster hanging in my office that read "Relax. Your subconscious is working." 2) If it's intended to be a commercial product, then you have to make some concessions to your intended market. But even if it's commercial, you still have to also please yourself. If you don't, you won't derive the personal satisfaction needed to keep going. If full dynamics is what you need to hear to enjoy the fruits of your labor, then leave 'em in. I would also point out that a) squashed dynamics is eventually going to make your song sound dated, and b) full dynamics in the current climate is a way to stand out from the crowd.
All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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AT
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Re:Mixing Style Question
March 22, 13 12:05 AM
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Spindle, radio stations have their own comps/limiters etc. as part of their own "sound". So it ought to sound just as loud as the over compressed stuff, just not as over over compressed. Python dynamics, when the song starts to take a breath it clamps down and squeezes the life out of it. +1 on bit's analysis on dating and standing out for the crowd.
https://soundcloud.com/a-pleasure-dome http://www.bnoir-film.com/ there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. 24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.
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jacktheexcynic
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Re:Mixing Style Question
March 22, 13 7:23 PM
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a lot of newer stuff that is coming out now is not "super-loud". i just got the black keys' album, and it has a sticker on it that says "play it loud!!!" and yes, you will need to turn it up. but it's worth it. the volume control is there, people will use it. another good example is foo fighter's "echos, silence, patience and grace" album. not the best example of dynamics mix-wise ("horizontally"), but arrangement-wise ("vertically") they were not afraid to turn it down, then turn it up.
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spindlebox
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Re:Mixing Style Question
March 22, 13 9:02 PM
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Bit! Good to be back! I have been so involved with work, I sometimes forget about this great place. Good points about full dynamics enabling one to stand out. I think I'll just continue down that path. My thoughts about a band's sound is this (and this is MY band). We all have our own unique sounds and together this is what makes our band what is is. Why would I want to change that? Thanks for everyone's comments!
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Kev999
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Re:Mixing Style Question
March 22, 13 10:20 PM
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spindlebox 1) do you sometimes find a solution to a mixing problem when you're NOT in front of the console; i.e., do you find yourself chasing rabbits down holes during a mix, and then think of a solution later when you're not even listening? My best ideas come to me when I'm away from the computer. The further away I am, the better the ideas.
SonarPlatinum∞(22.11.0.111)|Mixbus32C(4.3.19)|DigitalPerformer(9.5.1)|Reaper(5.77)FractalDesign:DefineR5|i7-6850k@4.1GHz|16GB@2666MHz-DDR4|MSI:GamingProCarbonX99a|Matrox:M9148(x2)|UAD2solo(6.5.2)|W7Ult-x64-SP1 Audient:iD22+ASP800|KRK:VXT6|+various-outboard-gear|+guitars&basses, etc. Having fun at work lately
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Danny Danzi
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Re:Mixing Style Question
March 23, 13 1:28 AM
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spindlebox To my friends in the audio engineering community. I have 2 questions that are unrelated: 1) do you sometimes find a solution to a mixing problem when you're NOT in front of the console; i.e., do you find yourself chasing rabbits down holes during a mix, and then think of a solution later when you're not even listening? 2) do you think it is more important to make a band sound like they really do (IF they have excellent tone to begin with), versus keep up with trends? For example, the late '90s to recent overcompressed instruments, especially guitars and drums. Or do you think going for dynamics is the way to go. For the record, I am for making a band sound like they really do, based upon my excellent sound/tone caveat, and going for dynamics and depth. Go! EDIT: I suppose I should provide a sample of one of my favorite mixes I've done, so you can hear what I'm hearing: http://www.reverbnation.com/alicesweetalice/song/14247200-blood-roses-2012 Great questions there spindle. :) I'll give you my take for what it's worth. Mixing solutions: No, it's been rare for me to figure out a fix when I'm away from the studio. The reason for that is, I really try not to take my work home with me. The problem with my method is, I'll stay until I figure out the issue or I'll not be able to sleep. So I try not to leave until a problem is solved. There have been a few times where I'll be lying in bed when I first wake up thinking about the stuff I have to do....and an idea for a mix I'm working on may come out of nowhere. But it doesn't happen often. Bands and sounds: It depends on the band as well as what their sound is. It's hard to make a 70's band sound 90's. If they don't have the elements of "what makes up the sound of the times" you'll pretty much be wasting your time trying to get that out of them. However, if you are also hired to be "the producer" it's definitely possible to achieve, but it won't be easy. See, sometimes a band may not want to totally sound like "today" but may bring you in a cd of something current. From there, you pretty much have to examine the band and see which of those elements within the current realm may be used for them or with them. It really depends though. Like, you won't make Motley Crue sound like Rascal Flatts even if they have Rascal Flatts production/instrumentation. So this question is really difficult to answer. Sometimes the natural sound of the band NEEDS to be changed because they are so close to themselves and their songs, they can't tell. In my opinion, it's always best to find that happy medium of the band's natural sound as well as grabbing a bit of the cool stuff of today production wise. This way, you sort of have a sound that's familiar with a production that is current. :) It will always be different for each band though...so you have to use your judgment there. Best of luck. -Danny
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spindlebox
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Re:Mixing Style Question
March 23, 13 10:16 AM
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Good stuff, Danny! Thanks!
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jamesg1213
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Re:Mixing Style Question
March 23, 13 10:49 AM
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Yes to the first question, I very often think of mix ideas, solutions and arrangement tweaks when I'm doing something else, usually when I'm working. Remembering them until I get home is the problem..
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sharke
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Re:Mixing Style Question
March 23, 13 7:40 PM
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My problem is that my brain seems to ease into its peak of creativity at around 1am, just when I should be jolly well going to bed. Before you know it, it's 3:30am and I have to be up at 8.....
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Danny Danzi
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Re:Mixing Style Question
March 23, 13 8:32 PM
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sharke My problem is that my brain seems to ease into its peak of creativity at around 1am, just when I should be jolly well going to bed. Before you know it, it's 3:30am and I have to be up at 8..... This would bother me sharke. The reason being, if we are constantly challenged within our own mixes to the point of having to come up with ways to bail ourselves out....we need to address why the issues are happening in the first place. I'm only slightly faced with that stuff with certain client mixes. I've never sat here on my own stuff wondering how to fix something or where to go with it. That's not because my stuff is good or anything, but it doesn't have blatant errors that warrant excessive problem solving. I either get it right or I re-record the problem area. :) -Danny
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trimph1
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Re:Mixing Style Question
March 23, 13 9:17 PM
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Danny Danzi sharke My problem is that my brain seems to ease into its peak of creativity at around 1am, just when I should be jolly well going to bed. Before you know it, it's 3:30am and I have to be up at 8..... This would bother me sharke. The reason being, if we are constantly challenged within our own mixes to the point of having to come up with ways to bail ourselves out....we need to address why the issues are happening in the first place. I'm only slightly faced with that stuff with certain client mixes. I've never sat here on my own stuff wondering how to fix something or where to go with it. That's not because my stuff is good or anything, but it doesn't have blatant errors that warrant excessive problem solving. I either get it right or I re-record the problem area. :) -Danny I do that all the beeping time...and I still get it worgn!!!! Then again, sometimes it just might be me second guessing myself....aaarrgh.
The space you have will always be exceeded in direct proportion to the amount of stuff you have...Thornton's Postulate. Bushpianos
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AT
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Re:Mixing Style Question
March 24, 13 1:11 AM
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One of the things I've found helpful is to print a cd and listen to it in the car. I have about an hours easy drive (opposite of the traffic flow) out to the ranch a couple of times a week. When I've tweaked mixes I'll burn them to a CD and listen coming home. It is an interesting listening experience, since my mind wanders what w/ traffic, etc. while I'm listening. It is a different environment - both sonically and emotionally not being at the desk. @
https://soundcloud.com/a-pleasure-dome http://www.bnoir-film.com/ there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. 24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.
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sharke
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Re:Mixing Style Question
March 24, 13 3:27 AM
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Danny Danzi sharke My problem is that my brain seems to ease into its peak of creativity at around 1am, just when I should be jolly well going to bed. Before you know it, it's 3:30am and I have to be up at 8..... This would bother me sharke. The reason being, if we are constantly challenged within our own mixes to the point of having to come up with ways to bail ourselves out....we need to address why the issues are happening in the first place. I'm only slightly faced with that stuff with certain client mixes. I've never sat here on my own stuff wondering how to fix something or where to go with it. That's not because my stuff is good or anything, but it doesn't have blatant errors that warrant excessive problem solving. I either get it right or I re-record the problem area. :) -Danny For me it's less about consciously trying to solve a problem (although at my extreme novice level, I would say that all of my mixes are "problem" cases anyway, something which will improve with experience hopefully ) than it is about getting ideas about the creative side of mixing, like "I wonder what it would sound like if I stuck a band-pass filter on this keyboard riff during this break" etc. I guess it's different for me because this is just a hobby and not my living, so I'm quite content to "fiddle" with tracks and experiment with stuff to my heart's content, which has been a great learning experience. I'm running a non-music related business during the day which can be quite the ordeal at times, so the evenings are my music time. And for a large chunk of the evening I'm winding down from the day and eating and such, and although I would love to be able to be more constructive with this part of the evening, I find it hard. I've always had a "second wind" in the wee hours however, back when I was dabbling with computer programming it was the same deal. Wasting the evening and then getting all revved up at 1am....maybe I'm just a night person
JamesWindows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re:Mixing Style Question
March 25, 13 6:19 AM
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Sometimes I've gone to bed after trying to fix a mix problem unsuccessfully, and have woken up with the solution fresh in my mind The brain is a wonderful machine and keeps on working on a problem long after you've "forgotten" it.
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spindlebox
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Re:Mixing Style Question
March 29, 13 9:55 PM
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^^^ Agreed. Sometimes the best solution is the simplest!
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Jeff Evans
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Re:Mixing Style Question
March 30, 13 2:57 AM
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It is the subconscious mind that does all the work solving problems that the conscious mind cannot. And you don't have to hope and wonder if it is going to do it either. The conscious mind can solve problems too and often easily and while being totally away from the studio as well. The mere act of taking a break and spending some rest time somewhere else is often enough to bring a simple elegant solution to mind. But if this is still not working for you just in those half awake half sleepy moments just before you go to sleep and also when you first wake up get your conscious mind to instruct the subconscious mind to do the job and get onto the problem. Be patient it might take two or three nights sleep to sort it out too. Don't hurry or force it. But the solution often comes quickly. The subconscious mind is most vulnerable to being instructed by the conscious mind in those half sleepy half awake moments. It won't listen to your conscious mind as much at other times. It tends to do its own thing at those times.
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