Mixing Volume

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mattplaysguitar
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2010/10/02 03:17:15 (permalink)

Mixing Volume

They say that 83dB is the ideal volume to mix at. Some say 85dB, either way, doesn't matter. Now, I did a test with some expensive sound measuring equipment from university at dB(A) I think average over about 20 seconds of music. Even 80dB is BLOODY LOUD! They say it's safe to listen to 85dB for up to 8 hours. I feel like it'll do my ears in 5 minutes! I probably tend to mix at no higher than 75. What are your thoughts on this? Anyone else think that 85 just seems so darn loud... I know it's also around the best spot due to mr fletch and mundy. I imagine fatigue would set in so quickly anywhere above 80.\

Maybe I have just treated my ears well (I'm only 23 as well) so everything still sounds loud!


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    Lanceindastudio
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    Re:Mixing Volume 2010/10/02 03:33:18 (permalink)
    I believe it is -83 and you use an spl meter.

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    post edited by Lanceindastudio - 2010/10/02 03:37:19

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    Jeff Evans
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    Re:Mixing Volume 2010/10/02 10:11:39 (permalink)
    The A weighting is only used for very non musical sounds and for things well above the low end mainly. As soon as music is involved and there is bass end you should be on the C Weighting instead. Yes you are right 85 db A is quite loud but incorrect. Do some tests with the C weighting instead and you will see the opposite is true.

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    Beagle
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    Re:Mixing Volume 2010/10/02 11:52:53 (permalink)
    Jeff - you've probably explained this before, but would you mind doing so again? what is A weighted and C weighted?

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    bitflipper
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    Re:Mixing Volume 2010/10/02 14:03:33 (permalink)
    83dbSPL is too loud for most people. Most pro mixers work at much lower levels, perhaps as low as 70dbSPL. At lower levels, the critical midrange frequencies stand out, which is where you should spend most of your time mixing.

    The concept of 83db (per side, 85db down the middle) is to do your final EQ at a consistent, known level that's loud enough to properly represent bass frequencies. It matches the standard levels for movie theaters.





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    mattplaysguitar
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    Re:Mixing Volume 2010/10/02 17:14:12 (permalink)
    Beagle, in short, they are simply eq filters that are designed to take into account the way the ear picks up frequencies in a non linear fashion. With a piece of music playing at a low-medium volume, our ears are not that great at picking up bass frequencies. The SPL meter has no problems as it is not a human ear. Bass frequencies have the most energy. The SPL meter thus reads a very high SPL output due to these bass frequencies, but WE don't hear them very well. So while the meter might read 75dBSPL, in reality, for our ears it sounds more like 70dBSPL because we don't hear those bass frequencies as much. If we apply a filter to that signal in the SPL meter before the output is read, then it takes into account the fact that we don't hear that bass as well at low volumes and gives you a more realistic reading of the SPL that we actually hear with our ears.

    dB(A) rolls off a LOT of the lows. dB(C) doesn't roll off near as much. The high frequency roll off on these is reasonably similar, but still different. dB(A) is generally more effective for lower level sounds where our ears are less sensitive to low frequencies. At around 85dB our ears really start picking up in their ability to hear lower frequencies quite significantly and it gets pretty flat (in comparison). At the higher levels a C weighting might be more appropriate.

    These weightings are all VERY approximate. Our ears are just too complicated to really make a perfect standard that works for everyone.

    Jeff, I don't agree that C is necessarily better for music as such. All the weightings are based off the fletcher munson curves which were based around pure tones. Bob Katz uses C for his monitor calibrations and I'm guessing that's because he calibrates to 83dB, where our response gets reasonably flat. If you were calibrating to 70dB, an A weighting could be much more appropriate as a C weighting would result in a much higher dB level than you actually hear.

    I did these tests a while ago now and on reflection I should have probably done them at C, or have done both. The meter is no longer available to me. The C would have told me much higher.

    Ahh, the world is so approximate! I'm study engineering so I see approximates of EVERYTHING every day! Some wild approximations. The world can't be modelled, only approximated. If I was famous, I would make that my quote...




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    mattplaysguitar
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    Re:Mixing Volume 2010/10/02 17:35:48 (permalink)
    Bit, doesn't 83 and 83 equal 86? But that's assuming completely uncorrelated signals. Perfectly correlated would add to 89dB - which is a mono signal. In reality we are going to get somewhere in between 86 and 89 for a musical piece.

    Yep, 85 is the standard for film. Bob Katz at least says he prefers to work with 83. This is because the 85 standard was set for large rooms. In a smaller room (where we tend to mix), 83 actually sounds about as loud as 85 due to "increased transient response, lower reverberation and proximity and directivity of the loudspeakers." (Bob Katz 2007) I think he's using VU meters to get those numbers though rather than an SPL meter which would read at 85 when the VU meters suggest 83. I think that's how it works...


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    JamieC
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    Re:Mixing Volume 2010/10/02 17:51:44 (permalink)
    Ahh, the world is so approximate! I'm study engineering so I see approximates of EVERYTHING every day! Some wild approximations. The world can't be modelled, only approximated. If I was famous, I would make that my quote...

    Great quote Matt.  One of the first steps of any engineering calc, - list your assumptions!  and man can those assumptions be dodgy eh?!
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    AT
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    Re:Mixing Volume 2010/10/02 18:01:51 (permalink)
    My favorite assumption is the economist whose stuck in a hole.  He states, "first, we assume a ladder ... ."

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    DW_Mike
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    Re:Mixing Volume 2010/10/02 18:19:55 (permalink)
    I usually mix at 80db - 83db SPL on the C setting.

    Mike
    post edited by chefmike8888 - 2010/10/02 18:22:04

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    Guitarhacker
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    Re:Mixing Volume 2010/10/02 21:50:14 (permalink)
    I never have run a db meter on my mixing levels.... because I don't have one...... well I have an app in my phone that is a db meter... but I don't think that's too awful accurate....

    I just run the speakers at 50% same as the sub... I link my output sliders and pull the level down there.... until I have a pleasant listening level.....

    The levels are running about 50% on the meters...sometimes lower. When I finish the mixing and get ready to export....I crank the master output sliders up until the meters on the console are just under the red.... this is usually a pretty decent sound level..... still not over bearing.....

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    bitflipper
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    Re:Mixing Volume 2010/10/02 21:55:29 (permalink)
    Precise values aren't important. What's important is that you settle on a level and use it consistently.


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    Jeff Evans
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    Re:Mixing Volume 2010/10/02 22:55:51 (permalink)
    I have done a bit of reading on this and it is simple. If its music and you are up around 85 db or so then it is the C weighting you must use. 85 db SPL C weighting is not loud at all it is just a very nice tame sort of volume and it sounds great. You can listen to it all day long too.

    A weighting is a bit more relevant at lower volumes and for sounds that dont extend down frequency wise too far. It stops false readings of odd low end sounds getting through but for what we do it is the C weighting we use and always use.

    Herb I would get a cheap SPL meter and try keeping everything at 85 db SPL because it is a very good level to mix at and the Fletcher Munson curves are very good at this level. I have a permanent mike hooked up to a rack mounted SPL meter and I find it very useful. It keeps you honest when you start creeping the monitoring levels up and they do creep up. But you would never know if the volume was creeping up. Before you know it is 90 db and so on.



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    Lanceindastudio
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    Re:Mixing Volume 2010/10/03 05:47:02 (permalink)
    bitflipper


    Precise values aren't important. What's important is that you settle on a level and use it consistently.


    true. Even more so, the results are all that metter.

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    Guitarhacker
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    Re:Mixing Volume 2010/10/03 14:27:13 (permalink)
    Jeff.... the way I have the levels set... it's kinda like... I can't go louder.

    In the Saffire interface, I have the input and output levels set and I leave them alone. They set the max in and out volume that the Saffire will allow.

    On teh monitors, there is a detent on the level at 50%... I set it to that..again... with the input limited by the Saffire control panel and the max level in the monitors set by the volume control on the rear.... I can run my MC4 faders into the red and still not exceed a respectable level of volume..... and I will check the next time I open the DAW...using the SPL in my phone app to see what it says..... it's graphing so it tracks with time.....it's supposed to be fairly close.....


    I am consistent in  using those levels and I think that is reflected in the results I get in my final music....
    post edited by Guitarhacker - 2010/10/03 14:28:29

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