Mixing the Snare.

Hi, i'm looking for some advice regarding the snare in the mix, my problem is after i've done the mix and it sounds ok i then come to mastering it and the limiter is getting a large gain reduction every time the snare hits.
 
I've used EQ, parallel compression and a soft clipper before the limiter, but the limiter seems to be over reacting to the snare which to me suggests i've got the snare to loud in the mix.
 
Looking at the waveform of the mix it does stick out, should i reduce it so it doesn't stick out and ignore my ears?
 
Also if i have PAZ analyzer on set to RMS i'm getting a pretty flat response from the mix, but on the wave form on the master bus the snare is really sticking out.
 
Cheers    
Steve.

Jeff Evans


It sounds like the snare is too loud in the mix. I have suggested this in another thread but one thing you can do is turn your main monitors right down low and listen quietly.

A better idea is I have a small mono speaker as well as my main monitors and I find the speaker especially at low volumes tells many things about the mix. Vocal levels for one but I have found that snare levels although at higher volume sound OK when you monitor your mix down low on a small mono speaker (ala Auratone etc) suddenly the snare is barking way too loud.

The small speaker can give important information to what I call the 'critical mix' and that is the relationship between most aspects of your mix. Of course larger speakers up loud will give more info about bass and reverbs and the like but the small speaker idea is very good I have found. You will be amazed at what you hear.

 
Thanks for your input, i actually have a pair or the new Auratone monitors as a second reference but i've not tried using just one on mono only, would i just select say the left output only on the master bus and turn off stereo interleave.
 
Cheers
Steve.

SOrry I cant offer any advice on this but Jeff has always been more than helpfull with any problems I have had

I Like the sound of what Jeff is saying here especialy about the bass I always find that the hardest part to fit well in my mixes and I have actualy recently been droping it out of my mixes but never thought to actualy run it through a Small mono speeker or 2 small speekers

I am useing a set of KRK Rocket 8s that I have just upgraded to from Tapco S5s and added a little accoustic treatment to my room its like night and day My mixes are translateing better on everything now.

But I was thinking of buying a set of the cakewalk ma-7a just for a small speeker sound this could be great for what jeff said

Thanks again for shareing your tips Jeff!

Norrie

Norrie is very right about snare tuning and thanks for bringing it up. I use a Sonor kit and I have got two snares, a chrome snare and a rosewood snare. The reality with these drums is they are so good you can point ANY microphone at them and you will get a fantastic snare sound!

I have done some interesting experiemnts with a very high quality microphone and a spectrum analyser and I have spent a lot of time hitting not only the snare but all the toms and the kick too. When you hit a drum many harmonics that are all bunched together rise up. But there is a small group that is always louder than the others. If you go to the trouble of reading out these slightly louder frequencies and then check that against your frequency and keyboard chart you will see where they fit in terms of musical notes.

You can go to the trouble of tuning all the drums to fit musical keys and when you do this I have found the drum sound is better than when you do not do it. Sonar drums speak a little more musically so it is a little easier to do. It does depend a lot of choice of heads etc. You need to put the damping hoops on while you do this too because they cut down on the harmonics either side and emphasise the louder ones a bit more.

It is fiddly and can take time and you have to keep checking it too because they go out after a while as well. You also need to pick notes that are going to be overall good with the music. eg If the track is in D for example I would be going for D and A notes etc. But in C it might be C and G notes.  Pitch is quite hard to hear in drums and that is why they still work over many keys and chord progressions but tuning them does bring them that little bit closer and more musically in line for sure. I cannot do it that well just by ear though I find that there is often more than one strong note present in a tom hit for example. That is where the spectrum analyser comes in, it shows you what is going on, you can see it.

A good idea is to sing what you think the ever present note is in a drum hit and check it against a keyboard. The problem is that there may be a strong fundamental and a strong harmonic and they are not necessarily musically related either which makes it harder to hear. It is a matter of deciding which one of those you are going to tune. One will still be louder than the other though and it might be the lower one but we are attracted to the higher one because of its pitch.

+1 for tuning your drums. I use BFD so the fake tuning is VERY easy to do in it! I personally just like to go by ear until it sounds right, but Jeff's method is just as valid, it depends on what works best for you.

+1 on listening to your mix at low volumes. This can be SO darn helpful in getting levels correct. Usually you find that the drums really don't need to be that loud. The drums should usually be a little behind the music or perfectly in line (depending on the song, otherwise it sounds like a drummer playing drums to a backing track.

The leveling method I like to use is this:
 - turn down EVERY track
 - turn up the vocal track so it's bouncing around -12dB
 - turn down your monitors so you can just hear it (headphones won't work as well, use monitors)
 - Now bring up your snare so you can only JUST hear it. If you turn down your monitors just a little, the snare should disapear and the vox is still just there - vox is always loudest - in most songs
 - Monitors should be so you can hear the vox and snare, but only just, now bring up the rest of the drums and important instruments. Turning down the monitors, everything except the snare and vox should go, followed by the snare, then vox.
 - Same method again for the less important instruments and things etc.

This leaves vox loudest, followed closely by snare, then drums and major instruments, and then minor instruments. This might work better with the mono speaker thing, but do it on your monitors too and see how the results vary. This is only a guide to get you in the ballpark and is not a method that will work for all songs and styles. It's very generic! But It's great to get you started. You can also listen to some similar professional music and slowly turn down the volume and listen to what instruements go first, and then mix your music the same way.

I also like what matt says thats a great and clear understanding very wel put

In regards to the drum tuneing I was on about what I find can be a very good way of tuneing it to ear like Jeff talks about in regard to tuneing to ear I sit with an acoustic guitar and play the open chord until they sit together just right.
I was useing this method for a while but It can be very frustrateing tuneing a drum to a key but what I tend to do now is tune useing an accoustic guitar or piano playing open chords then use a Drum Dial http://www.drumdial.com/ and write down the reading of the Dial for that drum in that key so I can always go back to around that tuneing in seconds with no problem then just a quick check with the accoustic or piano once I have it where I want it :)

It a great wee tool for tuneing any drum on the kit and I swear by it now :)

Norrie

Hey Steve mixing using an analyser.. Well.... I hope I did not imply in my above post I use VU meters to mix because I definately do not. Ears first and foremost. I think listen to some great commercial mixes and practice mixing trying to create the same sort of mixes. Do not worry about how your mix looks on an anlyser. I think that is a mistake. You will find that once you start getting better mixes happening, when you do put an anylser on, then they will start looking more like a commercial mix. And what does a commercial mix look like?

Remember you are also looking at the mastered version of a commercial track and that will change from a straight unmastered mix as well.

The analyser is good for showing what happens in the top end from about 5 K onwards. That is one place they can be handy. Because if your mix is too bright then it wont have that nice (downward) slope you see on mixes that have just the right amount of top end. But then again your ears can tell you that too.

JamieC


Steve,  there is some excellent advice in this thread, and I have learned some tricks. 

One thing that occurred to me is that you might be getting a resonant peak (or peaks) in the snare sound that is tipping it over the edge and sounding harsh.  The Sonitus eq notch filter is great for finding these and then pulling them out by a few dB.  You need quite a high Q setting.  Of course this will alter your snare sound, but maybe for the better!

cheers

Jamie
 
 

Cheers, i tried the turning down the volume trick, but my vocals seemed way to loud and the snare was small and thin, which may be because of the resonant peaks as you say.
I was thinking that by turning the volume right down i'm only hearing the high frequency of the mix and no mids or bass, so unless each track is balanced correctly this method won't work.
 
Cheers
Steve.

so unless each track is balanced correctly this method won't work.

And the moral is.....you use the methods described so eloquently above by Jeff et al to make sure you DO balance your tracks correctly.

Bristol_Jonesey

so unless each track is balanced correctly this method won't work.

And the moral is.....you use the methods described so eloquently above by Jeff et al to make sure you DO balance your tracks correctly.

 
 
I'm not saying Jeffs method won't work, it actually does because it made me realize some tracks such as the snare were to thin sounding at high volume, to fix this i'm trying layering different snares with much better results than i was having with just using EQ alone, it's sure not as easy as just setting levels. 
 
I've been using the T-racks 3 limiter and sometimes L2.
Cheers
Steve.

steve@psbnoe.wanadoo

Norrie


Is recording a sample of the snar and droping it in as a sample an option for you ?

What style is the track and what snare are you useing what heads ?

Norrie

I'll try a new mix over the weekend and see how that goes, the snare is a sample and it's an electronic style pop song.
 
Thanks for the help.
 
Cheers
Steve.

Have you tryed a different sample ? or perhaps Tuneing the Snare to the key of the song as I mentioned above. If that is an option in what you are useing ?

I can help the snare sit great in the mix and can really add to the song or again like we said some layers different snares. I know it might sound strange but even try some things like a 14x2.5 picalo With a 13 x 6.5

Even steel drums compared to wooden can make a difference in the end.

I have Loads of snares A beautifull Cherry maple Black panther 13x7 and a DW edge brass and maple 14x6.5 are my 2 main recording snares followed by steel picalos hand hammerd you name it chances are Ive found a use for them all lol

I guess what I am saying is if you have the option to try other snares in the mix then you should to see if they sit better.

If you need any samples aswell give me a PM I would be happy to help :)

Norrie