Monitor Management Help Needed Please.

Shadow of The Wind


Your volume control (ATTY) is passive.
 
***Yes I know this ...althought I did not list this attribute it is anotheer one of the reasons I purchased it....****
 
 
Thus, if you turn it all the way up (max.), it is (approximately) the same as having a direct connection between the audio interface and the monitors.
 
*** I totally 100% agree.*****
 
You should actually try that!
 
***I have Thus this thread!*****
I just remember that with my old set up which was a Tascam 144 interface connected to my MSP 5's (the very same one's listed above) I could only turn the volume up to the 10 O'Clock position Max before my ears would hurt.....(Here Zero equals 7 PM and full Vol is at 5 PM twisting clockwise).... NOw with my atty my MSP 5's are set to 4 PM and the atty is set to 3 PM and it is not that loud in here.......it is not 140 watts loud I am sure of that.....again, thus this thread...I know something is not right....
 
Your interface has an output level of +4 dB.
 
**OK, I do not know...is this listed in the manual? I am assuming yes........But how do you know? At what vol. level will I know that I am at +4???****
 
 
Your monitor have +4 dB at the center (12 o'clock), if I interpret the manual correctly. Start with that setting. You should then reach full power when the meter of the interface is at -8 dB and the volume control of the ATTY is at max.
 
***OK.....now when I started with my SPL meter I did start with the Monitor at  the +4 Position...I do know that and twisted clock wise untill I reached 85 (approx) on the SPL which equates to 2 PM on the Monitor vol knob......Now I am not sure if that equates to -8 on the monitors.....it's not marked.....but I did not touch the FA 101 interface at all........For the atty your saying I should set the Vol. knob at full level??? 5 PM if you will.....???
 
I don't think the ATTY is the problem.
 
***This would be good becuase in all .....I do like the unit...It is a real great solution for what I need........I am just not where I know I should be******
 
You have to set the volume in Sonar so that the interface is almost reaching the maiximum output level during loud passages. Sonar's output meter should be at around -15 dB to -3 dB most of the time.
 
 
****This was an issue because it was not between -15 to -3......It was maxed out in the red in the meters..........So your saying that I should adjust "Sonar's vol. controls???  I thought that to get this to 0 db I was not to touch them???? Do I do this at the track level and leave the master buss alone or split the difference between the track and the buss or what??????? 
I'm confused.......but I can see logic in your process as well..........
I think I am going to have to combine your Process and Rbh above's process to come to the answer here.....
 
 
 This will give you the best sound quality. Do not use Sonar to reduce the volume, use the ATTY.
Which Vol.....the Pink noise track vol or the vol coming out of the monitors?????? This is a point I am confused on....
 
If it is way too loud with these settings (interface close to max., ATTY close to max), turn down the volume control of the monitors.
 
OK.

If it's still not loud enough, something else must be wrong.
 
Agreed.
 
Thank you for your thoughts on this.....I appreciate your respond and will have to think some more and research some more....

Wilko

Shadow of The Wind


Okay, I guess I have to correct myself in one point:
You say that the volume of the monitors is higher at -10 dB than it is at +4 dB.
 
Yes that is correct!.....Because last week when I was doing my SPL test I started with the Monitor vol knob at the 12 o'clock Position (+4). Since I needed more vol..to get to the 85 db range....I twisted the knob clockwise (towards the  -10 position) and I seen in my SPL meter increase in db's. 
 
Right now they (the monitors) are parked at the 2 PM position. Now I do not know what setting that is because it is only makred in graduated hash marks. So all I can say is that it is somewhere between +4 and -10. But it is closer to the +4 mark than the -10 mark.
 
So, I guess the control sets 'input sensitivity' meaning that at the +4 dB setting you would need +4 dB(u?) for full ouput power, and at -10 dB you only need an input level of -10 dB(u?) to reach full power. 
 
YES according to the manuals all the monitors (HS 80, MSP's and sub) vol. knobs report "Input Sensitivity". 
 
.....I kind of think that I am following you here....let me re read this a few times and think it thru......
Now (at 4 am this mornig) I pulled out my manuals for both the FA 101 and the Yamaha HS 80's. the FA 101 states that it puts out +4 dbu in out put jacks 1 - 8 (which is what I have covered. (2 for my HS 80's, (outputs 1& 2) 2 for my MSP 5's, (outputs 3 & 4), one for my MSP 3, (it's on output 5) and 1 for my HS 10 sub (it's on out put 7).
 
So, in that case with the setting I used, you would exactly reach full ouput power when the interface reaches full-scale (0 dB). 
 
so how would I know when my interface (FA 101) reaches full scale (0 db)????  If it puts out +4 dbu, what would tell me this????
 
Or does it just put out +4 dbu regardless? This interface has a vol knob but it is a little strange in the fact that 100% power is at the 12 O'clock position. I read the statement this morning ....but it was 4 oclock...I was a little foggy... I will try to find the manual on line.....
 
Here, you can usually trust the level meters in Sonar and the LEDs on the interface.
 
Ok.....I am still confused.....sorry.........I mean I understand what you said in the statement above but in my mind there are several variables and so I am jumbling things up.....
 
OK....let's see if we can put together a step by step procudure for me......this will help me a lot.......
 
Let me think a bit and then I will start with some questions and we can start from there......Please.....but this is how it usually is for me.....things get foggier before they clear up and then once I have it straight in my mind I'm good to go......
 
If the volume control on the monitors indeed sets the senisitivity, -10 dB would make it 14 dB louder as compare to +4 dB.
The ouput level of your interface (+4 dBu) can be found in the specs.
 
Yes I found that this morning....thank you......same as the HS 80's........I will have to look for the MSP 5's & 3 and HS10. But I would believe they would be the same as well.........but let me look for an online PDF Manual.

Wilko
 
 
OK........I found all my manuals on line (I have them at home anyway) and have printed out the most improtant parts of each of them. Like the Spec sheet, the backs of the speakers and the Yamaha MSP 5 and HS 80 have some tips on setting up the monitors with a sub.
 
I am going to go home and review everything and then try to write down my questions so that I can get an idea on how to solve this....
 
Clifford

Rbh


I'm assuming that you are using a full scale pink noise source on a track of sonar.
 
I would assume that would be correct. I trusted ModBod to help me with this last year and he went to a website to snag it. Knowing him I do not truly think he would use just any ol thing...so yes.
 
You are getting full meter readings out of sonar and into the FA-101.
 
OK Here is where I have my first question....
Yes the output in sonar is HOT. very Hot. By that I mean that the signal from the track is pegging the meter all the way up and into the top of the red meters...It may be going over 0db...I just have not looked at how high it is going....so I know that the track is really putting out...
 
So my question is........Do I turn the track down in Sonar?
If so, How far?
what do I want the level meter to read?
 
I have another question but I just know that I am asking it incorrectly.
Now if we are turning the track down then that would mean there is a difference in the final result of what 0 db means?......??
 
 
Lets make this easy. With the ATTY being passive, Place your monitors at the +4 setting.
 
This is how I did start. So we are good here...
 
Turn the ATTY all the way up full.
 
this is where I may have made my mistake....I started with the Atty partially open on the 1st channel, but in the 2nd and 3rd channels I had to crank them all the was to about 85% to get the SPL Meter to read 85db.
 
Adjust the output of the FA-101 to the point of the max volume you'd ever want in your listening environment. From here on out - leave your FA-101 set right where it is.
 
Well I never really do mess with my FA-101 volume any.....I really just use sonar to balance the track Vol. and the atty to adjust my listening levels. but OK, I will do this.
 
Leave your monitors set right where they are.
 
OK, so I really will not be touching them once I set them at +4 that you stated earlier?
 
Adjust your monitors levels with the ATTY only. If it is riding at 40 - 50 - 60 % to reach 85 db for mix level, then so be it. Essentially you are remoting a similar control as the FA-101 output somewhere convenient.
 
OK this makes sense to me...
 
It probably acts the same as if you were controlling the input sensitivity settings on your monitors from a remote location. You are just placing a different line level control with nifty switches for other monitors somewhere convenient.
 
Yep...
 
It all sounds good. Now put a favorite Cd track in sonar ( everything in Sonar set at zero ) and see if you get what you expect.
 
OK....now here is where I go back to my question in up above that I did not know how to ask......
 
when I have the pink noise in Sonar and if it is reading so hot that it is going over 0db and I adjust it down to make the meters come in line with 0db then wouldn't it make a difference here in this final step?
 
Crank the ATTY up and you should be listening at a nice cranked level, back it down for mix volume levels and enjoy.
 
OK.....
Now last night I did some online searching for all my manuals in pdf form....(I have them in hard copy but I hate to write in them or highlight or mark them up in any way .... but I have not issue with using a copy!)
 
the one common denominator I found in every component.....FA-101, Yamaha HS 80, MSP 5, MSP 3 and HS 10 is that they all have a set position for +4.
 
The FA-101 is suppose to be puttin out +4 at the "Normal Output Level" which I am assusming is controlled by the monitor mix knob which should be in the 12 O'Clock position (which is where is has always resided, I do not move this knob ever....I have not need to )
 
The HS 80's have a sensitivity input set position for +4 at the 12 O'Clock position
The spec's say that "input Sensitivity / impedance is -10 dBu / 10 k ohms
I have them connected using a XLR-3 Balanced cable...(Monster Cable 16 foot)
 
The MSP 5" have a sensitivity input set position for +4 at the 12 O'Clock Position
The spec's say "Input Sensitivity using an XLR-3 Balanced Cable is at +4 dBu, when the Level is at the center Postion".
Which is what I have and the way I have it set up......(Monster Calbe 16 foot)
 
The MSP 3 has a sensitivity input for / of +4 
the Specs say "Input Sensitivity /Impedance Using Line 2: +4 dB / 10 k using an XLR Balanced Cable".
which is again what I have and the way I have it.....(Monster Cable... 16 foot) (Line one is for a 1/4" Jack)
 
The HS 10 sub does not say specifically....and has no set vol. positions on the back vol. knob.......however the specs read pretty similar to the HS 80's so I am going to assume that since it is the same manufacturer and the same series line we have to be pretty close.....
The spec's say that "input Sensitivity / impedance is -10 dBu / 10 k ohms
I have them connected using a XLR-3 Balanced cable...(Monster Cable 16 foot)
 
My SPL MEter is the Nady DSM-1
 
So I think that set up wise I am configured correctly....it comes down to balancing technique now.....I will try what you have lined out for me when I get home tonight and let you know how it shakes out......
 
Thank you very much for all your help.....I really appreciate it cause I do not understand it.....sheesh
 
Clifford 

sock monkey


Looks like you have some good help already, but just in case your still a little in the dark I'll offer my 2 cents:
 
I am fine with that....and yes....a lot of good help!
The Atty20 is passive
Yes I do know this but:
 
so was designed to be at full on UNLESS you wish to attenuate a certain signal. All channels should be at full clock wise to start with.
I did not know this. My only questions is why would it be designed to be full on? but this is still good to know.....
 
You would then use it to lower ( attenuate) the volume of a speaker pair that was not desired.
This was my only intention. (and still is)
 
You would not use it to control room levels.
This has never even entered my little brain. :-)
 
Use the interface for that.
This is the biggest issue ....since there is only the one knob that mixes the Input signal with the computer signal It is something that I set at 12 o'clock and never touch after that. Edirol would of improved their design if they would of had seperate knobs for each of these tasks..
 
There is a danger in passive devices contaminating the quality of the signal. But I can see why it would be a handy device.
I do think that the atty does color the sound....just a little bit....but then so does the HS 80's.

The Monitor/Computer knob on the interface is to blend playback with input.
Yes...again somewhat confusing.....

Yes leaving it in the middle is normal as you will then hear playback blended with direct monitoring of your input. Just be aware that it will also attenuating both input and output equally when in the center ( 12 o clock) .
i leave it there cause that is what I thought I was suppose to do...I "Rarely" do any direct input....Rarely...so maybe I will crank that knob to the right and leave it there instead....??? and I was pondering just this topic this afternoon.....so it  is funny that you mention it now..

So for the purpose of setting  your system at unity you should turn it all the way to monitor ( full clockwise). Then turn it back once you have everything balanced.
Again, I was coming to the\is very same conclusion this afternoon so it is funny that you should mention it.... I may reach out to you again for more steps cause like I said I think we are missing one or two.....but they are important ones!

Well I do appreciate the 2 cents because we are thinking a lot alike....

sock monkey


Ok so I'm surprised you only now have tried listening without the Atty20 in the chain, That would have been the very first thing  on my list. When trouble shooting always good to eliminate things and swap out for optional components. 
 
I agree....but you know how it is ...your not ready to know until it is time for you to know......in other words I did not really realize there was a real problem until just recently when I re-arranged my studio...It became very apparent....so I guess I was ready to know!
 
Also when you tried turning the knobs on full was the sound level as loud as when you removed the unit?? you have not mentioned this yet.
the answer here is no....even at full open the sound level was very much softer than when it was coming straight out of the FA-101.....in fact on the MSP 5's my vol know was at the 9 and 10 position and it was already blasting away full vol. when it was connected to the Atty....I did not even dare to open them full .....was a fraid of blowing them out.!

Food for thought, I would not use white noise unless I'm EQ a room with a RTA.
 
?????? I do not believe that I said I used white noise.....I believe that I said I used Pink Noise....
 
 
 I would just play a song that is in the style I'm working on. It sounds like the track you are using is too hot anyways. Make sure it is not over 0db. Ever.
Uh...I was not playing a track.....I do not believe I said I was playing a track......and just because I know that you do not know me, and for the record My tracks never go into the red.....Maybe....maybe they spike there once in a while but on average / on the whole, as a rule I keep my signals (as my room vol) low.......I aim to keep my tracks just under the red level....I have always felt that if they were in the red then the track was too hot.....so then my tracks will never see 0db's. I believe that the only time I mentioned then only time I crank it up is when I go to try  and master it....here they will be a little be hotter but not a lot.......
 
what I did say was that the "Pink Noise" track was going over 0db.....the Pink Noise track is what was way too hot....
 
What perciptated this thread is that originally I am wanting to know how to set up and calabrate my monitor system using a pink noise track....
 
what is the procedure?
what are the steps?
so that I can get as accurate aof a reading as I could.......When trying to find this out is how I found out that my Atty was holing my system back....which led us down a completely differnt path.
 
but I am still searching for the answers to my original questions.
 
Clifford

sock monkey


Sorry, Pink noise, and you did say it was a track, so therefore why I said when you play" the track." 
 
Well most understanble....I did not think that way....sorry, my fault....
 
 And you did say it was over the line. There is way to much text here to wade through to follow, I'm trying to help but it becoming a bit confusing. But I think I SEE NOW.
 
I totally agree.....now you see my point as well......we may have to start all over...LOL
and besides this is a complicated situation...
The point you just made is that when the Atty20 is in line and cranked to full the signal is lower, and you say by a lot? well that answers the question for me.  I would not use a device that did that to my output.
There's some kind of impedance voodoo going on then. One would hope that the controls would offer zero resistance at full, or a click or at least a bypass button. Yep, there's your problem.
 
OK....I would agree.....and that is why I started the thread thinking that it was the Atty......You know how you get thoes feelings about things....

Your interface has 8 outputs. So you have these options:
- Use the software interface within Sonar.
 
???? I do not "Think" (I could be worng here) there is a software interface....I would just have to control it from sonar in the output sections.......Unless that is what you are refering to.....then I understand...
- Purchase an interface with hardware monitor level controls.
HHMMM....I guess but I still like my FA-101....it works real well
 
-Purchase a monitor management device that works without compromising.
I am looking at the Presonus Monitor Central rack mount unit......but I would need some cash for that.....so it may be a little way off before I can afford that.
It's one of the reasons I don't like these new fangled powered monitors. The Volume knob is in the wrong dang place!
 
LOL!