Monitor Placement, advice, etc.

 
Some notes: My mix position is at 38%. The speakers are equi-distant from each other as they are from this position.
 
My concern is the height. They are pointed directly towards my head, however. I thought if anything this would help with reflections.  I've read that this can be a good thing.  I have lots of treatment behind, on the sides and the ceiling (you can see one of the panels there. I am also looking for ideas behind them and to the sides, other than bass trapping in the corners. Foam, diffusion?
 
Thanks!!!

Thanks Jamie!
I'm hoping that with the monitors at a slight angle to the surfaces of the desk, etc., that I can kind of keep that stuff to a minimum.  Also, these JBL LSR 4328P's have that  Room Mode Correction technology and kit that comes along with (http://www.jblpro.com/catalog/General/ProductFamily.aspx?FId=7&MId=5) the mic/software to test. 

I'm hoping that this works as good as I heard it does!    Of course, you can see that I'm not relying totally on that software to cure my ills.  I've spent a great deal of time treating this room, and will still do whatever it takes to get this room sounding GREAT!!  (Including moving those monitors if I have to!!!)

Thanks!!

Even with them pointing down at my mix position?  (Sorry, playing Devil's Advocate here!)  I can understand monitors being higher sounding different because they're no longer in line with your ears.  But with the front of both of these monitors hitting me squarely in the face?  Have you tried this?  What would it matter then if they were higher if they're pointing right at my mix position?
 
(Remember Devil's Advocate.)
 
. . . . creeping away . . . .

Jeff.  Thanks for that.  It makes a lot of sense.  I am still looking for opinions though before I drill more holes!  LOL.

Much appreciated.

Hey Bit.  Yes, I agree.  That's why I'm researching.  I'm actually planning on using some dampening behind the speakers I believe, but that was another reason why the angling was an attractive option.  I'm going to have diffusion and some trapping behind, and there is already trapping above.  There will also be trapping in the front-side corners.

Also important noting is that JBL themselves not only recommends these particular wall mounting brackets, but includes the pre-drilled holes for them on the bottoms of these cabinets.  If it was that big of a problem being that close to the wall, I doubt they would recommend and support this type of usage?

Again, I don't mean to be Devil's Advocate, and I'm not doubting Jeff.  I'm just trying to learn.  I recorded in this studio back in the late 1980's and this was the configuration:



Now, are these the Soffit Monitors that Jeff is speaking of?  I also know that they're recessed.  BUT, the thing that Jeff seems to be most concerned about is

STEREO IMAGE

No matter what type of monitor, the ones in this above picture in this pro studio are positioned just about exactly like mine, in fact, they're even HIGHER.  Wouldn't the stereo image be skewed as Jeff suggests, by them being up in the air like that, thereby defeating the "ribbon" of stereo sound?

NOTE:  This room sounded GREAT!!!!

This is why I'm being stubborn!  LOL.  
 
I will also note, that there are 2 speakers directly in front of the mix position; I remember these sounded VERY tinny.  I think they were used as "if it sounds good in crappy speakers you're there", kind of thing.  Could they also have been used to check stereo image?  If this is the case, should I employ my Behringer MS40's for this purpose on the shelf above my desk?

Also Bit, before I installed these speakers, I did the test you speak of.  Here are the results.  The above is before treatment and the bottom is after:



If you know how to read it, let me know!!!  LOL.

Thanks everyone.  Again, I don't mean to seem like I'm being difficult.  I'm not!  I'm only trying to learn!  Everyone's advice and opinions are VERY much appreciated and valued! 

Marcos, thanks for that!  I'd love to see a pic if you can rustle one up.

Nice.
I'm totally at a loss as what to do.  Mounting lower is going to be tough due to the patch bay I have sitting right below that bracket.  (grumble grumble)

Oops, I hit "reply" instead of "edit"

Wow, Scott. Nobody can doubt you're dead serious about getting it right!

Yes, you'll get some bass trapping from those corner pieces. Whether it's enough, you'll find out soon enough. Can't hurt, though.

BTW, I neglected to comment earlier on your screenshots from the sine test. Those are quite impressive results! Your efforts have obviously improved the quality of that space enormously, and I'll bet you can easily hear the difference, too.

...the guys on Gearsluts don't like the angled corners that much. Then again, they don't like much of anything!!!

Take a photo of an 1176, enlarge to actual size, cut it out and tape it up on the corner baffle. The GS guys will go crazy over it. Just make sure it's the blackface, or they'll know you're trying to trick them.

I have just had another thought about the height of your monitors. One of things we teach in sound engineering is the human ear and how the Pinna (Outer ear) works. It collects sound and directs the sound into the ear canal. There are some interesting EQ things that happen within the ear canal as well but that is another story.

Imagine sitting about 3 feet in front of three speakers. Not horizontally aligned but vertically instead. The 1st one is right at your ear height. A 2nd one on the level of your proposed or any higher than normal height. And also tilting down aimed at you ear level. Maybe 2 feet up.  And the 3rd speaker 2 feet below and tilting up at your ear level as well.

So now you are sitting in front of three speakers placed in a vertical line. What do you think your chances are with your eyes closed identifying a sound coming out any of the three speakers. I think you would hear it every time. That says that sound can come into the Pinna at various vertical angles and be heard. One could experiment further with this and keep closing the angles down until they are almost on the same plane. I bet the ear will have the ability to pick the height difference even at very closed angles. Like 6 inches up and down.

They may not all sound the same though. The higher and lower ones would probably suffer some high frequency loss and loss of detail. And perhaps the wider the angle difference here the worse the off axis response would be. I have never liked listening to monitors that were mounted as high up as the ones in that picture. Soffit or not.

This could be another good reason to keep your monitors at your ear level. The sound is just going to get in there the best way and least impeded way possible. It must effect what you hear at your eardrum. Even a slight loss of detail is going to make stereo imaging adjustments a tad harder.

So that is just perhaps a more theoretical view of it. There is an exception though. If you tilt back in your chair and face up so that you are square on to your monitors again then I think things would go back to normal. But we tend to spend a lot of time not in that position but in fact leaning slightly the other way tilting down looking at our mixers and qwerty keyboards etc.  Worsening the angle of entry.

If you are going to have monitors higher up and you do lean back from time to time to have a good listen, that is not so bad either because it means you are not doing anything else and paying full attention. But it is going to be harder to adjust things because our eyes are pointing up too. You could offset this with another pair of (quality) nearfields a bit lower down for the more general listening while you work.

spindlebox this is just a suggestion, dont worry so much about the all important patchbay in the way and therefore everything must work around it. It is only connected with cable and you should mount it right away from that area to the left side. (A floor standing rack in a wooden case tilting back and only 10 to 12 rack units high) You will have an extra surface to put things on. Even if it means completely recabling it. It could effect your acoustics in that all important area. Less clutter in the front part of your studio. The best studios are set up that way. People have way too much equipment and clutter in the all important monitoring environment. More surfaces for things to bounce off. You have gone to an amazing amount of effort with the construction of your studio you could take it just that little further acoustics wise.

Even the computer monitor between our speakers could also effect the way things sound in that area as well. Mastering engineers often have nothing in between the speakers. They mount things much lower down for stereo imaging accuracy.

bitflipper


Brilliant!

That gives me a great idea for a product line: actual-size cardboard cutouts of well-known vintage gear that you can stick in your rack when taking photos of your studio.

HA!!!  Man, I am SO tempted to post this!!  LOL.  Ethan Weiner (of RealTraps) has convinced me to get rid of the angle.  I mean, if you don't listen to him - you're basically a dumbass!!

If anyone's interested in that Articulated Monitor arm (I'm def. getting one), here's the link provided by Bill:

http://lcdarms.com/

Yes, I think it's definitely on the MUST BUY list; but I'm going to wait until all the necessary acoutremants are in place in my control room!

...a little late to the discussion, but my understanding is that the tweeters in your monitors should be positioned at ear-height to the monitoring position.