Monitor advice needed please.

mike_mccue


The satellites probably sound so darn harsh that you are mixing to them by backing off on the mids in the mix room and then realizing that you did when you listen on some other system.

Here's a review of the Blue Sky system:

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jan05/articles/bluesky.htm

A careful read will reveal that the author is professional gear pimp and that he dances around all the negatives while never really pointing out that there are no tangible positives.

For example; Porting is not bad... it was developed to make ok speaker drivers sound better in small boxes. The reviewer makes the lack of port seem like a benefit but he never investigates if the speaker driver is actually a good match for a sealed box design. Sealed box designs... by their nature are always larger than the ported design if both are optimized for the specific speaker driver used. You can't really make a small sealed box that sounds ideal without a port.

For example; Sub woofers do not sound best on the floor... people just tell people who don't want to place them in the best place that it's ok to put them where they suspect they are gonna put them anyways so that they do not come off as contradictory.

The whole system seems designed for someone who doesn't really want to fit monitors into their mix situation.

I'd suggest that you learn what you have to do to back yourself into a end product that you like.... you'll need to endure hyped mid range in your mix position and you'll learn that in this case the reliance on the subwoofer means imaging below about 150hz is a complete mystery.

The Blue Sky 2.1 system is a system... if you don't use it as a system it will not even perform at the marginal level of quality it was hoped it could provide.

You can get used to this and compensate.

Then you can start considering how to fit some real monitors into your set up.

If you value small size and good sound... then yes, ditch the sub concept and simply get a good pair of 6" or 8" ported monitors that have adequate power full range.

best regards,
mike

bitflipper

When i try my mixes on systems with a sub they seem ok but perhaps thin in the mids-high mids,in the car they seem even thinner.

The general rule of thumb is that whatever your speakers are good at, your mixes will be bad at. For example, if you have lots of bass, your mixes will tend to be bass-light. Conversely, wherever your speakers are weak, you'll tend to overcompensate. Whatever you do to compensate for your speakers will likely be inappropriate for any other speakers.

The same principle applies to acoustical issues in your room. You'll tend to compensate for resonant peaks and nulls at the mix position but those adjustments will be specific to your room and not be right for any other space.

Of these two problems, the acoustical one is by far the bigger one. Consider that any frequency nonlinearity in your speaker system might be responsible for a misrepresentation of maybe +-6db in the worst case, but room resonances may cause perceptual errors of 30db or more!

Look into the acoustics of your room first, before digging into your pockets for better speakers. Some inexpensive bass trapping will do more for your mixes than $1000 speakers will.

marcos69


My room dimensions are similar to yours.  My mixes improved exponentially by following Bitflipper's advice in this thread - http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.aspx?m=1495170

I treated my room with 2" Owens Corning 703 - http://www.atsacoustics.com/item--Owens-Corning-703--1002.html on the walls for reflections and 4" of 705 - http://www.atsacoustics.com/item--Owens-Corning-705-Rigid-Fiberglass-Board-2-inch-Case-of-6--1021.html.  There's lots of info on how to build these on the web.

My monitors are Yamaha HS50 which go for US dollars around 200 each.  It has a 5" woofer which is a bit light in the bass, but I still get great mixes with them.  My next monitor purchase will probably have at least an 8" woofer.

Most people that I know who successfully use subs to mix with only use them to check their mix.  Not to use them the whole time they are mixing.
 
Thanks for the info.
 
Cheers
Steve.

mike_mccue


Hi Steve,
I don't think it is appropriate for me to tell what you should consider buying... but I'd take Bit's advice and get your room as stable as possible... than I'd shop for a pair of high powered 6" or 8" speakers and use them as near fields... not far near fields... and then you can probably get away without a sub woofer.

I think a sub woofer should be placed in line with the satellites and I like to do it near ear level to maintain imaging coherency.

My satellite speakers are biamped and run 250 watts on the woofer, 100 watts on the tweeter. My sub runs 400 watts... I can take or leave the sub. I like it but don't need it.

I am not trying to brag or stuff like that... just trying to let you know what I mean by adequate power. I generally mix at 81-83dBSPL at the mix position. The point being is that the extra power is used to give good bass definition when it is required. I describe my monitors as industrial tools... nothing fancy.

You may or may not know that I stand against the idea of using an ARC system... I just think it's the wrong direction to go. I only say that to get it out there and not acknowledge it. I understand that many people think it helps them. How can I argue with that? :-) I can't.

I do think using lots of bass trapping always helps.

Best of luck with your quest for something that works for you.

best,
mike

steve@psbnoe.wanadoo

...I can't get any more treatment in the room...
 
Cheers
Steve.

bitflipper

i've got rolls of insulation stacked in the corners against the walls from floor to ceiling and foam all over the walls it is very dead sounding.Would making proper bass traps be better?

That's actually a very efficient bass trap, with lower extension than even commercial bass trap products.

Bass traps should tame low-frequency resonances without making the room overly dead. It's the foam on the walls that is making it sound dead. You may have overdone it, or are using the wrong kind of foam. What kind of absorbers are you using on the walls, and what percentage of the total wall/ceiling area is covered?

Speaker position is also important. Make sure that sub is away from any walls, especially corners. You may also be able to improve it by raising it off the floor.
 
The foam is about 1" pyramid type and covers everywhere on the side of the room where i mix and then in reflection areas on the other side, i did this because it is a small room.
Thanks for your help,
Steve.

mike_mccue


The foam is transparent to the 200-500Hz only the corner traps and any extra high dense material will help with that.

The 1200 may be getting sucked up buy the foam or it may simply be the result of nulls in the room.

Are you making these observations with or with out the ARC engaged?

mike_mccue


So is it fair to assume that ARC is boosting at 1200Hz in an effort to flatten?

Consider this;

1) You and Arc hear a hole at 1200hz. ARC boosts the level at 1200hz. You feel you have adequate or perhaps too much 1200 and leave it be or perhaps turn down a bit of 1200... not specifically but via a myriad of mix decisions.

2) The mix actually had plenty of 1200hz but it disappears into your rooms characteristics. ARC boosts the 1200hz in an effort to fill the hole.... but it didn't have too because it was really in your mix... just missing in your room. Now you mix to the results and perceive that there is something unnatural about the sound at 1200... and you respond by backing off at 1200. The 1200Hz levels in your mix are not being represented by what you hear.


suggestion; pull the foam and disengage ARC. Mix for a few weeks and see what happens.

The start shopping for speakers that are designed with a priority for good sound rather than convenience of  placement on a crowded desk.

all the best,
mike

bitflipper


I'd still like to know more about the foam, Steve. Was it a commercial product, or something improvised?