Monitors + sub = ?

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6StringGeek
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2008/09/14 08:38:17 (permalink)

Monitors + sub = ?

The bass response in my monitors is nearly non-existent, so of course my mixes come out boomy at times, often requiring tweaks to get the bass down to an acceptable level. Has anyone on this forum added a sub to their monitor system? Or is there a reason why we mix without the bass pumping?

Just curious.

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    Beagle
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    RE: Monitors + sub = ? 2008/09/14 09:12:37 (permalink)
    Yes, some have and others haven't on purpose. it's a relative subject. even those who add subs to thier DAW system usually agree that finding the correct spot to put the sub and finding the correct levels to adjust it to will be important and difficult to do.

    what kind of monitors do you have? I chose to get monitors with 8" subwoofers so that I wouldn't (hopefully) have to worry about trying to add a subwoofer to the system.

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    Fog
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    RE: Monitors + sub = ? 2008/09/14 10:12:19 (permalink)
    I own a pair of 824's BUT the sub for them costs a silly amount , the same cost as the speakers..

    how many Hz do the monitors go down to... a lot will be at the 45-50hz mark... the mackies go down to 37hz

    a lot of people will only have a home setup without a sub , so it's good to mix for 2 "home speakers" and not just for people with a sub.. as you have a bass that you can be slightly higher in range for normal speakers. or else they'd be no bass on them.

    I get around it by using a set of logitech's as well.. cheap speakers with a sub.

    I normally cut anything below 30hz also, and anything in the "sub" range I treat as mono, to stop the speakers going out of phase at the low end, esp. for boxes in cars.
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    6StringGeek
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    RE: Monitors + sub = ? 2008/09/14 14:32:45 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: Beagle

    Yes, some have and others haven't on purpose. it's a relative subject. even those who add subs to thier DAW system usually agree that finding the correct spot to put the sub and finding the correct levels to adjust it to will be important and difficult to do.

    what kind of monitors do you have? I chose to get monitors with 8" subwoofers so that I wouldn't (hopefully) have to worry about trying to add a subwoofer to the system.


    Thanks for the reply. I am using Behringer Truth B2030A monitors with a 6.75" speaker on each. They are great for mids highs, and even work for bass, but they lie a little. Anything bass-like in my monitors is a lot more boomy on a stereo, so when I mix I have to almost mix the bass out of the song on the monitors in order for it to be "right" on a stereo. Then the problem becomes that I can't hear the bass good enough on the monitors to know if it's the feel I want. I only find out after I rip it and play it in my car, or on my home stereo. I was just hoping that throwing a sub in there, or a bigger woofer would allow me to hear the song they way it would be when I changed it over to another system. I am pretty naive about these things...so I am probably missing something obvious.

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    6StringGeek
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    RE: Monitors + sub = ? 2008/09/14 14:36:52 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: Fog

    I own a pair of 824's BUT the sub for them costs a silly amount , the same cost as the speakers..

    how many Hz do the monitors go down to... a lot will be at the 45-50hz mark... the mackies go down to 37hz

    a lot of people will only have a home setup without a sub , so it's good to mix for 2 "home speakers" and not just for people with a sub.. as you have a bass that you can be slightly higher in range for normal speakers. or else they'd be no bass on them.

    I get around it by using a set of logitech's as well.. cheap speakers with a sub.

    I normally cut anything below 30hz also, and anything in the "sub" range I treat as mono, to stop the speakers going out of phase at the low end, esp. for boxes in cars.


    Maybe I mean woofer, and not sub?

    The specs say the frequency response goes from 50Hz-21kHz. I imagine that should cover it on the low end...but it just sounds way different on my monitors than in the car or home stereo. I imagine it's supposed to so you can hear every little flaw, but it hurts my head trying to figure out a good mix when I can't hear it properly in the monitors. I am really just looking for a lazy man's way of mixing so I don't have to keep running out to my car...even though i know that it is important to try them on several systems...my legs are getting tired and I'm running out of CD-Rs LOL.

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    Guitarhacker
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    RE: Monitors + sub = ? 2008/09/14 16:04:42 (permalink)
    Have you tried using a compressor on the bass and EQ roll off to eliminate the boominess?

    I mix on 5" reference monitors.... they sound good and I've not had to many song forum feedback issues dealing with bass problems.

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    6StringGeek
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    RE: Monitors + sub = ? 2008/09/14 16:09:03 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: Guitarhacker

    Have you tried using a compressor on the bass and EQ roll off to eliminate the boominess?

    I mix on 5" reference monitors.... they sound good and I've not had to many song forum feedback issues dealing with bass problems.


    I haven't tried a compressor or eq...not sure what settings are ideal though either. Thanks for the suggestion. I will do some research! :)

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    foxwolfen
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    RE: Monitors + sub = ? 2008/09/14 16:43:31 (permalink)
    While a small woofer (the bass cone in a speaker) can theoretically go to low frequencies, the physical size limits how much air can be moved, which in turn limits the actual bass output. Putting a sub-woofer (a misnomer as its not sub-sonic) on the system that can actually move the air will always result in a better mix as you will have a closer approximation of what people will hear on a home stereo system with much larger woofers than you would fine on the typical monitor.

    For more accurate bass, you would want to ensure the sub-woofer is not firing down, or backward into a wall (unless the wall is acoustically neutral which is unlikely). I made that mistake (I bought a Downward Firing PSB sub that interacts with the hardwood floor in a way that is most undesirable. I ended up having to put a very heavy and thick rubber mat covered with a thick piece of carpet under it to tame the bass amplification due to the floor). Forward firing in a small environment is desirable. As bass is omnidirectional, its usually best to have the sub centered between the speakers if possible.

    While smaller speakers can have surprising base response (due to careful enclosure design that effectively amplifies the bass) they will never be as sonically accurate as either a pair of large woofers or a sub (up to a point, as the larger the cone gets, other sonic problems begin to manifest themselves). 8" is about the minimum woofer size (even in a dual sub-woofer enclosure system - I have two 8s in my sub).

    So if you can afford the sub, I would say go ahead and get it. It will make mixing easier, and listening more enjoyable (especially at lower volumes).

    Cheers
    Shad

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    Guitarhacker
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    RE: Monitors + sub = ? 2008/09/14 16:45:56 (permalink)
    On the compressor... & eq.... you have both available to you in your cake product ( I believe as a plug in FX) use the eq and roll off or lower the bass freqs at about 80 hz with a slope down below the freq. You should experiment with this...setpoint and slope and amount of roll off until you get a decent sound...

    on compression..... see if there's a preset for bass in the compressor ...this gives you a starting point... you do not want it compressed to the point where you can hear th ecompressor working or "breathing"..... you just want to level out the peaks and valleys a bit so the bass is consistant. experiment here too. do some research and educate yourself on this area....

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    6StringGeek
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    RE: Monitors + sub = ? 2008/09/14 17:04:24 (permalink)
    Guitarhacker: Thanks for the info. I have a lot of reading to do!

    Shad: Great information. I was looking at subs today and there are so many i didn't know what to choose. your info is very helpful!
    post edited by 6StringGeek - 2008/09/14 17:06:32

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    Guitarhacker
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    RE: Monitors + sub = ? 2008/09/14 21:09:07 (permalink)
    Before you buy a sub...check out and learn about the eq & compressor...you may be OK without a sub.

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    6StringGeek
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    RE: Monitors + sub = ? 2008/09/14 21:38:09 (permalink)
    Hey anything to keep money in my wallet. Thanks again.

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    foxwolfen
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    RE: Monitors + sub = ? 2008/09/15 00:56:57 (permalink)
    One thing I forgot to mention... when it comes to natural bass response, larger enclosures are better (up to a point) than smaller baffled/channeled (bass amplifying) enclosures (as long as they are tight and resonance free). The smaller ones are designed more as a compromise between space and sound. Obviously you will want to choose the largest that comfortably fits your environment.

    As for which one to get, listen to all of them and then look at the response graphs of the one or two you like best (see where and how it rolls off) and efficiency specs (some will require a lot of horsepower to get working, others wont (SPL at 1 watt at 1 meter)) - it depends on your needs).

    Obviously Herb's advice is invaluable whether you get a sub or not. Well worth pursuing.

    Cheers
    Shad
    post edited by foxwolfen - 2008/09/15 00:58:36

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    6StringGeek
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    RE: Monitors + sub = ? 2008/09/15 10:14:41 (permalink)
    Thanks Shad. Now I'm excited to go to the store and check stuff out. And I am go to check out what Herb recommended today. Thanks again to you both.

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    foxwolfen
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    RE: Monitors + sub = ? 2008/09/15 11:30:52 (permalink)
    When shopping, try to ensure that the sats and output device are the same on each sub trial... the only thing you want to change is the sub itself. Also if the manufacurer of your monitors makes a matching sub, then I would give it a good listen and keep my eye on that as it should be matched to the low frequency roll off of the monitors themselves.

    Also there are other things to consider - some subs will use whats called a passive radiator (coupled or uncoupled) that is basically a woofer cone with no voice coil or magnet (hence the "passive"). Its designed to allow the main driver to push two cones, which allows for enclosures that are narrow and have a smaller driver width. I have no preference one way or the other. If it sounds good, that is all that matters.

    Also you will need to look at how the sub will be driven... will it be inline with the main sats (in which case you need to watch impedance) or will it be on a dedicated channel? Some are powered, some are not (they are powered by the system amp). So, it will be helpful to be clear with the sales staff about the type of system its going to be used with (although you will have to take their judgment with a grain of salt - especially if they are on commission).

    Cheers
    Shad

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    6StringGeek
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    RE: Monitors + sub = ? 2008/09/15 11:37:52 (permalink)
    Shad, I am so glad I asked the questions before i went shopping and thanks very much for taking the time to educate me. I didn't know there was that much to consider.

    Awesome information that is sure to save me some headaches. Thanks again!

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    foxwolfen
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    RE: Monitors + sub = ? 2008/09/15 11:42:46 (permalink)
    As a man, "shopping" is something I hate to do - except when we are talking about audio components, computer parts, or cars. Then I can shop till I drop LOL.

    Just have fun and take your time. :)

    Cheers
    Shad

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    6StringGeek
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    RE: Monitors + sub = ? 2008/09/15 12:33:37 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: foxwolfen

    As a man, "shopping" is something I hate to do - except when we are talking about audio components, computer parts, or cars. Then I can shop till I drop LOL.

    Just have fun and take your time. :)

    Cheers
    Shad


    +1

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    seriousfun
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    RE: Monitors + sub = ? 2008/09/22 15:23:23 (permalink)
    Your playback media, whether CD, MP3, DVD, etc., will have two identical full-range channels (or five plus a low frequency headroom channel for surround) - 20 Hz to 20,000 Hz, capable of 85 dB SPL with 20-or-more dB of headroom. When recording, mixing, or mastering, it makes sense to use monitor speakers that play this range at minimum.

    One way is to use two truly full-range speakers.

    The other way is to integrate a subwoofer (yes, a misnomer) with your limited-range mains.

    They both work. They both present challenges, particularly in small rooms.

    When integrating a subwoofer, the first task is to use a proper crossover. Some subwoofers have them built in - your source plugs into the subwoofer, which filters out the high frequency information from itself and filters out the low frequency information from the mains. External active crossovers are also available.

    Second is room placement. The subwoofer should be placed where it delivers flat accurate bass to the listening position. Extensive experimentation and measurement will be needed. The bottom two octaves - 20-40 Hz and 40-80 Hz - typically have a few very deep dips in frequency response, caused by reflections in the room dependent on its dimensions. Rarely is this at even divisions of a room (such as centered between the two main speakers). since that is where a half-wave cancellation is almost guaranteed to occur.

    After setting polarity and carefully calibrating level, your system should be full-range.

    When choosing a subwoofer, your first task will be to buy enough subwoofer. Many many problems with room integration go away when there is enough headroom in the subwoofer, and remember that it takes a lot more raw power to move low frequencies than high frequencies for our ears to hear them equally. If you use a pair of mains with eight inch woofers, a single eight inch woofer subwoofer won't add much to the system - you'll need much more cone area and probably 3-4 times the power.

    I'm not a fan of ported, horn-loaded, or passive-radiator subwoofers - I'd look for a good sealed-cabinet subwoofer - but that doesn't mean that there aren't some good-sounding subs of these types. Bass does radiate from all directions of a subwoofer, nearly equally, so down-firing, etc., hasn't made that much difference for me - the offending wall/floor/whatever will still cause problems, and nothing short of concrete can actually change most low frequency sounds.

    Good luck!



    Doug Osborne
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    6StringGeek
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    RE: Monitors + sub = ? 2008/09/22 19:54:44 (permalink)
    That's some great info. Thanks much. I appreciate the time you took to write.

    Without all your (and everyone's help) I would likely buy the wrong thing. Thanks again.
    post edited by 6StringGeek - 2008/09/22 19:56:47

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    foxwolfen
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    RE: Monitors + sub = ? 2008/09/23 02:28:35 (permalink)
    Bass radiates in all directions (true) but the cone is still driving large volumes of air in the direction of the cone (or ports - bass is not like other sound vibrations in that it carries significantly more kinetic energy than a mid or high range driver). Pointing it down or rearward in an untreated environment will increase the interaction with the floor or wall in ways that may be undesirable. The net result is a shock wave that rebounds off the floor, then again off the enclosure and then back off the floor and so on. Bass requires a highly dense material to damp out (or well designed bass traps). My forward firing sub has less overall room interaction than my downward firing sub due to floor design (hardwood). The same downward firing sub in my old place (carpeted) had a near perfect sound.

    While bass is omni-directional, this does not mean it has no point source. It does. If your sub is not centered your bass may be difficult to place in the mix. People move their subs around the room to try to tame undesired room interactions, but this is not ideal. Ideally we want to treat the room around the speakers, not the other way around.

    These days speaker system design is much like car design. There are many different models, but they all accomplish the same thing. When it comes to ported, bass reflex, passive or horn loaded, the difference is not so much about "better sound" then it is about application. You would not really want to use horn in a small room as they are designed for massive power output. Again, its not about what I like, or Doug likes, but what you like. If it sounds good to you, and meets your needs and requirements, then whatever type you like best, is what is best (sound is subjective irrespective of what some people claim about empirical measurement).

    A crossover is not a desirable commodity as it adds even more noise to the chain. After 6 months of shopping I settled on my Reference 3A monitors as they are crossoverless (they use a simple bandpass (IE a capacitor) for the highs - large woofers do not need a crossover as they are not capable of reproducing highs by design). My PSB sub is also crossoverless. However, budget systems will likely use components that are not so tightly designed and an internal crossover my be incorporated, though ideally your amp or audio interface will have a dedicated channel for bass (in a Dolby system) thus also eliminating the need for a crossover. Good speakers will also have a means to bypass the internal crossover (my 3As can be driven by an external crossover if I so choose, bypassing the bandpass filter. External crossovers are generally significantly better than the built in crossovers in a typical speaker system - good speakers allow this so you can design your own response curves to suit a particular need/venue).

    Cheers
    Shad
    post edited by foxwolfen - 2008/09/23 02:32:45

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    Bristol_Jonesey
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    RE: Monitors + sub = ? 2008/09/23 07:18:07 (permalink)
    but it just sounds way different on my monitors than in the car or home stereo


    Don't forget, home stereo speakers are designed to flatter the sound of whatever gets delivered to them.

    Car stereos less so, but you have the disadvantages of HUGE amounts of external noise, a skewed stereo pereception, hard, reflective surfaces.

    The pint is, getting a mix to sound good under all possible conditions is never going to be easy - what sounds good on one system may well prove to be unlistenable on another. We face compromises all the time in our quest.

    Good luck!!!!

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    RRabbi
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    RE: Monitors + sub = ? 2008/09/23 09:00:11 (permalink)
    I have the M-Audio BX8a's (pair) and the matching BX10s subwoofer ... really nice difference... There's a built in crossover and so the sub takes care of all the low frequencies and sends the rest to the monitors... Then the monitors aren't straining to try to re-create frequencies that are harder for them...

    Dave

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    6StringGeek
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    RE: Monitors + sub = ? 2008/09/24 19:46:50 (permalink)
    Shad: thanks for all the info. You are a genius on this stuff.

    Bristol: I agree completely, and it frustrates me to no end. Thanks for commenting.

    RRabbi: I was hoping someone had one that sounded good. I will go check that out. Thanks.

    Dan

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    beltane
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    RE: Monitors + sub = ? 2008/09/25 20:01:11 (permalink)
    Just FYI, I just had this same experience. I have 5" monitors and the bass was totally under-represented. I did a mix that sounded great on the monitors, then I tried it on a bigger stereo system that has nice big woofers, and it was amazingly boomy. Like... I couldn't stand to listen to it. After that i decided that I wanted to be able to actually hear the lower bass end of my mix, so I went out and bought a sub. I'm happy with it. You have to balance it, so that the bass doesn't become over or under represented for your setup. But after that, it works out well. Also, it takes some of the load off of your monitors, because my sub, and most subs, as I understand it, cut the low end from the signal that goes to your monitors, leaving them to handle only what they are built to handle, and the sub handles everything lower. That way you won't blow out your monitors by pumping too much low end by accident either.

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    #25
    6StringGeek
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    RE: Monitors + sub = ? 2008/09/25 23:02:53 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: beltane

    Just FYI, I just had this same experience. I have 5" monitors and the bass was totally under-represented. I did a mix that sounded great on the monitors, then I tried it on a bigger stereo system that has nice big woofers, and it was amazingly boomy. Like... I couldn't stand to listen to it. After that i decided that I wanted to be able to actually hear the lower bass end of my mix, so I went out and bought a sub. I'm happy with it. You have to balance it, so that the bass doesn't become over or under represented for your setup. But after that, it works out well. Also, it takes some of the load off of your monitors, because my sub, and most subs, as I understand it, cut the low end from the signal that goes to your monitors, leaving them to handle only what they are built to handle, and the sub handles everything lower. That way you won't blow out your monitors by pumping too much low end by accident either.


    Right on. Glad to hear I am not alone. Thanks for the info. I am definitely psyched about picking one up. Thanks again!

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