JD1813
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Monitors - what makes up a "decent" system?
With all the great posts here on modern production techniques, using EQ, Compression, Busses, Sends, etc etc I'd really like to know what are some brands & models of "decent" (good quality, lower cost) monitor systems? What gripes me to no end is to spend hours putting a mix together, using headphones primarily and then I switch to 2 different speaker systems to listen and adjust levels more.... only to find that when I get the MP3 on my car system, I find a horrible mix with vocals too hot or instrumentation totally out of whack.... ! What ARE some decent brands and models of monitor systems? What are you all using? 
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batsbrew
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Re:Monitors - what makes up a "decent" system?
2012/08/22 15:25:07
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do you want pro level, or just simple home recording level?
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batsbrew
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Re:Monitors - what makes up a "decent" system?
2012/08/22 15:26:16
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could be monitors are the least of your worries.....
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batsbrew
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Re:Monitors - what makes up a "decent" system?
2012/08/22 15:27:55
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room treatment can sometimes be more critical than the monitors.
everything is connected.
everything influences everything else.
i would spend some time, if i were you, browsing the SEARCH function, all of your questions have been asked a hundred times before, and by spending some time looking at those answers, you can probably boil your questions down to some specifics, which will save you a HUGE amount of time/learning curve
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Monitors - what makes up a "decent" system?
2012/08/22 15:35:13
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"Monitors - what makes up a "decent" system?"
Personally speaking, I focus on adequate power amp capacity.
Lot's of fancy name speakers come with cut rate amps built in them.
Mains with 50 watts on the woofers? Don't even bother. :-)
best regards,
mike
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JD1813
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Re:Monitors - what makes up a "decent" system?
2012/08/22 15:42:14
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I get what you're saying there Mike, and I also have seen other posts on the subject, but I guess what I'm asking is, what does it take in a monitor system, to really get a faithful reproduction of the nuances of the balances in the mix? I.E., Why does a car stereo (well, a fairly decent one I guess), seem to be able to reproduce a clarity and balance that I can't get with phones or multiple PC speaker systems with subwoofers, as well as a 5-1 surround-sound speaker system? Are there certain specs for a DAW monitor system that's required in order to get that correct balance before mixing down the audio from the project? It all seems so hit-n-miss to me right now - it's like headphones are SO accurate you hear every little thing, but maybe what's happening is they are somehow compensating. So I try to use as many speaker systems to preview as I can, but sheesh. Enough to drive ya to drink, getting an accurate monitor of the mixdown ???
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Monitors - what makes up a "decent" system?
2012/08/22 16:08:54
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There are certain specs for specialized tasks such as film sound mixing but for music it's never really been formalized into specs. The film sound specs include room specs as well as electronic specs and they are intended to facilitate consistent play back in theaters that meet the same spec. That's why some studios run things like EQ on the monitors... it's actually part of the spec.
File that under too much info. :-)
Some say that "monitors" are specialized and flat while "stereo speakers" are meant to entertain and emphasize certain things to enhance particular styles of music.
My thought is that all good speakers are reasonably flat, while most cheap speakers are not. A lot of times this can be associated with the cheap amps that are stuffed inside them.
Back when we all used separate speakers and amps one could see how a good amp made a cheap speaker sound better. We could also see how a great speaker didn't make a bad amp sound any better... it just sounds more accurately bad.
Now, if you get a powered speaker you get what you get and the cheap stuff will never sound better than it does.
With regards to comparing the car stereo; perhaps you have a nice car stereo? My Honda Van OEM package sounds great. My Wife's Honda Element OEM system sound ugly. Go figure.
With regards to headphones... well, they take the room out of the equation. Batsbrew already mentioned that one should seriously consider the listening environment when considering the usefulness of speakers.
I dislike using headphones and I like to learn to listen to speakers in a room and make the best of it. I have to use headphones for work... I just dislike adding any more time to that experience.
My approach is to keep the speakers off the wall and use all the tried and true placement techniques that stereo buffs have enjoyed for a few decades.
If you take the fanciest speakers and put them up against the wall on a shelf you are wasting their potential. Indeed that is why you can find so many people who claim to have tried the best but also claim that a pair of cheapies are just as good.
If you can't get the speakers off the wall... you are fighting physics... and you'll end up learning about all sorts of compensation techniques.
One thing is for sure, treating the acoustics of the room is always a good thing.
You can use a combination of approaches to make a best circumstance.
I'd be embarrassed to relay how much any one of my speaker rigs cost, so I will not.
I believe that good placement, greater than adequate power, lot's of active listening, and acoustical treatment for the room are the most important factors.
Disclaimer, for those that need to have it spelled out... this is all just my personal opinion.
I know my answer isn't formatted for you to make easy use of the info.... I'd say beware of anyone who tries to make such a complicated subject seem easy.
In any event, you are certainly on the right track in thinking about all this stuff... I'm confident that if you get enough good info you'll eventually come to understanding that is effective for your circumstance.
If your speakers are sitting next to a wall, try an experiment... get them off the walls and give them a try just to see if it becomes easier.
I hope you find this helpful.
all the very best,
mike
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batsbrew
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Re:Monitors - what makes up a "decent" system?
2012/08/22 16:09:09
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room treatment can sometimes be more critical than the monitors.
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IK Obi
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Re:Monitors - what makes up a "decent" system?
2012/08/22 16:10:45
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Really, it depends on your budget. Remember, quality can be reached on average speakers as well. Especially if you set up your listening/mixing set up properly and tune your room well, whether with software or acoustic treatment.
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Kalle Rantaaho
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Re:Monitors - what makes up a "decent" system?
2012/08/22 16:20:13
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The car system, good or bad (supergood excluded), does not have balance or whatever. It's a system that has several types of filtering/FX built in to compensate the less ideal listening environment. But usually, if you make a mix that sounds OK in the car, it most likely sounds OK in most other places.
Are you mixing with a surround system???? The only recommendable system for mixing/mastering is 2 speakers (+subwoofer if necessary). And then, a poorly adjusted subwoofer can totally sabotage your mix. And I can imagine any 5.1 system is no good for mixing. They are not designed for colourless reproduction.
There are no magic speakers. No matter what you buy, you need to do a lot of trial and error before you get there. You can make a decent mix with 300$/pair Behringers or with 2000$/pair Genelecs, or you can make useless mixes with both if the room acoustics is (too) bad.
Comparing the frequency contents of commercial CDs and your own products with an analyser gives usefull info. The free Voxengo Span2 is excellent for that.
SONAR PE 8.5.3, Asus P5B, 2,4 Ghz Dual Core, 4 Gb RAM, GF 7300, EMU 1820, Bluetube Pre - Kontakt4, Ozone, Addictive Drums, PSP Mixpack2, Melda Creative Pack, Melodyne Plugin etc. The benefit of being a middle aged amateur is the low number of years of frustration ahead of you.
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Monitors - what makes up a "decent" system?
2012/08/22 16:20:18
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batsbrew
room treatment can sometimes be more critical than the monitors.
:-) Did you see that I had specifically acknowledged the value of your advice? :-)
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JD1813
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Re:Monitors - what makes up a "decent" system?
2012/08/22 16:20:36
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Extremely helpful, thanks Mike!
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batsbrew
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Re:Monitors - what makes up a "decent" system?
2012/08/22 16:35:47
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yes, but apparently JD missed it.
mike_mccue
batsbrew
room treatment can sometimes be more critical than the monitors.
:-)
Did you see that I had specifically acknowledged the value of your advice?
:-)
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Danny Danzi
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Re:Monitors - what makes up a "decent" system?
2012/08/22 17:05:09
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JD1813
With all the great posts here on modern production techniques, using EQ, Compression, Busses, Sends, etc etc I'd really like to know what are some brands & models of "decent" (good quality, lower cost) monitor systems? What gripes me to no end is to spend hours putting a mix together, using headphones primarily and then I switch to 2 different speaker systems to listen and adjust levels more.... only to find that when I get the MP3 on my car system, I find a horrible mix with vocals too hot or instrumentation totally out of whack.... ! What ARE some decent brands and models of monitor systems? What are you all using?
Hi John, I'll tell you what I've done to make the choices I've made. In the beginning, I used to grab reference material and go to a store and listen to my stuff on each set of monitors. The mistake *I* made was coming home with the set that sounded the best instead of the set that had a happy medium of everything. If something pushes low end, you probably don't want it because it will give you the idea that there is enough bass in your mix to where you may end up with "bass light" mixes. The same with monitors that may push highs, or be too warm. What they push can be colors that literally make you make decisions that may be false. So you want to be careful with monitors that may sound incredible. You also don't want to get monitors that are too big for your room as this can present a problem. Nothing bigger than 8's and even there, in some small rooms they can be over-kill. I like to have a sub at all times. Even if a set of monitors may seem to give me enough bass, it's not the same as having a sub kick you in the teeth with the different low end it delivers. This to me has been a game changer and something I will never do without. The right amount of sub you choose is extremely important. Too much, you will mix bass light. Too little, you will mix bass heavy. So you'll need to experiment. Most times for me, I use just a little of my sub to fill things out. If I can feel it and hear it, I'm using too much. You want to use enought to where when you kill it, you know it's missing yet when you add it in, it's not over-bearing. Room correction etc: Depending on your room, you may need to add some of this if you are really having problems. I've been luck in many of my rooms by just using ARC by IK Multimedia. In my big studio though, we have bass traps and foam etc. I just don't want that stuff messing a room in my house. I think it's ugly for a room in your house...and like I say, ARC has helped me enough to where I don't need that stuff. It doesn't work for everyone, but I'm batting 1000 with it. ARC (at the worst case scenario) will eq your monitors to be flat in response. Even if you went out and bought the nicest Genelec's or Event's that money could buy, they need to be eq'd. This to me is even more important that room correction decor. In all studio's these days, they hire a guy to come and analyze your room. He runs some noise through your monitors and it shows him what you are missing on a graph. You supply and EQ (most people use a Rane for this) and he dials in the stuff you are missing and takes out the stuff that is too dominant. You never touch this eq again and it sets your monitors up to be flat. ARC does this same thing in a sense and does it from many different places in the room. The dude that did the analyzing is doing it from your major sweet spot...ARC does it from several so it helps the monitors to sound good all over instead of just "that sweet spot." As for brands, I have many here and feel they all have their place. My main monitors at this time are Adam A-7's with the sub 8 that was made for them. I love the sound of them and they are my work horses at this time. I also have NS-10's, Tannoy, Tascam, Genelec, Rokit 8's with the sub 10 that comes with them and an old set of Radio Shack Optimus which are cool to give me that consumer sort of quality. I also use 2 sets of regular pc speakers that are really cool too. Both have a sub and are great for that consumer type listening environment. I use Altec Lansing at my one studio, and a set of Logitech X-53's here. I could actually mix or master on them because they really sound good to me. I of course had to correct them to be more flat, but that was simple and painless. Anyway, monitor selection is a lot like buying a guitar really. It's a soul mate sort of thing that you'll just need to look deeper into. What works for one guy may not be to your liking...so you'll have to do some trial and error as well as maybe purchasing and returning. I've done that way too many times...but it gets you one step closer to where you need to be. :) Best of luck! -Danny
post edited by Danny Danzi - 2012/08/22 17:35:54
My Site Fractal Audio Endorsed Artist & Beta Tester
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JD1813
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Re:Monitors - what makes up a "decent" system?
2012/08/22 17:05:29
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batsbrew
yes, but apparently JD missed it.
No - sorry, I just got busy. I appreciated both of you commenting and the combination of factors I have to take a look at. I wont' be rushing out to buy speakers, obviously, without analyzing the room situation I'm confined to as well. I know it's a factor. So thanks both of you! -John
mike_mccue
batsbrew
room treatment can sometimes be more critical than the monitors.
:-)
Did you see that I had specifically acknowledged the value of your advice?
:-)
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jamesyoyo
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Re:Monitors - what makes up a "decent" system?
2012/08/22 17:44:25
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+1 on ARC...a real life-saver.
I would also recommend Har-Bal to help you identify and determine what type of mix issues you are having. A well mixed and eq'ed track will sound good everywhere.
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droddey
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Re:Monitors - what makes up a "decent" system?
2012/08/22 22:12:41
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Leaving aside other, more practical issues, all of which probably are relevant... I think that probably most cars sound bad, but you are just far more criticial of your own music in the car, while you have already long since internalized what the commercial music you listen to really sounds like and your brain just compensates a lot for the deficiencies of the car's sound system. And you probably don't listen nearly as critically to that stuff in your car. The guy who mixed it probably thinks it sounds like crap in your car as well, relative to what he was hearing when he mixed it.
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Monitors - what makes up a "decent" system?
2012/08/23 08:29:36
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I had spoken of adequate amplification earlier. It's my opinion that using speakers systems that are under powered creates a difficult mixing situation. How can you mix the critical low end when the sound file is being turned into mush by a under powered amplifier? You can do it... but it will seem difficult. Mixes made on accurate playback systems translate to more playback systems than mixes made on mushy systems. The speakers I use day to day have amps on the woofers that are rated at 250 watt (0.1% THD into 2 ohms). The amp in the (added for clarity) subwoofer I use is rated at 260 watts (0.1% THD into 2 ohms) Now let's look at some name brand price point speakers that people often buy. KRK Rockit 8: The woofer is driven by an amp rated at 70 watts (no THD info available) KRK sub 10: The woofer is driven by an amp rated at 150 Watts ( Continuous @ 1% THD+N @ 100Hz ) Adam A7: The woofer is driven by an amp rated at 50 watts (no THD info available) Genelec 8040a: The woofer is driven by an amp rated at 90 watts (no THD info available) Even the venerable NS10 can be considered. They sound a lot different when you have a nice amp driving them. They sound nasty when you don't. So, if someone is speaking of NS-10s I am immediately curious about the rest of their speaker system. Is it powered by Bryston? Or Alesis? A lot of folks have stumbled in to the circumstance where great reviews and sort of good enough sound seems to justify spending money on what is actually low grade gear... and they end up listening to mush in the low frequency areas when they need to actually be listening to what is in the sound file. It's not any bodies fault that good speaker systems cost a whole lot of money... they do and nobody can change that so most vendors have adopted a price point take all your budget approach to distribution. A lot of companies don't even bother making a good speaker because they know that very few people will save up the money to buy an actual good system. We all know what it costs... it's more than any of us want to spend. If you have the nerve to be critical about what you are listening to you should endeavor to listen to an amp that couples with your speaker to realize a system that reproduces your sound file accurately. If you start with "mush", and then you add a subwoofer you get "mush +". Try to avoid that. If you start with a play back system that is adequately specified and then use some old fashioned speaker placement recommendations (get the speakers off the walls) you will find it is not so hard to make a mix that translates to other systems. BTW, effective speaker placement is FREE, and it's effective. That's why I recommend it before any other compensation or purchase of yet another low grade speaker system. It seems to me that a good place to start is with one really good speaker system. There's no merit in owning several examples of why bother speaker systems when what is really useful is to have at least one setup that is worth listening critically too. In my opinion, adequate power and just about any speaker is a more useful choice than any of the fancy under powered price point boxes the sales guys stick people with these days. How many times do you have to get stuck with mush before you can have waited to purchase something adequate? It took me while to save up for the primary speaker systems I use every day... but I knew it was worth every penny... and I'm glad to have the perspective of someone who enjoys good sound on speakers that I don't have to think of as adversaries. Disclaimer for those that need it spelled out: The facts I posted are facts. The opinions and conclusions I have drawn by interpreting the facts are my personal opinion. :-) Oh btw, did I mention speaker placement? It's free and incredibly effective. :-) all the very best, mike edit spelling
post edited by mike_mccue - 2012/08/23 10:32:39
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Danny Danzi
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Re:Monitors - what makes up a "decent" system?
2012/08/23 09:30:53
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mike_mccue
I had spoken of adequate amplification earlier.
It's my opinion that using speakers systems that are under powered creates a difficult mixing situation. How can you mix the critical low end when you sound file is being turned into mush by a under powered amplifier?
You can do it... but it will seem difficult.
Mixes made on accurate playback systems translate to more playback systems than mixes made on mushy systems.
The speakers I use day to day have amps on the woofers that are rated at 250 watt (0.1% THD into 2 ohms). The subwoofer I use is rated at 260 watts (0.1% THD into 2 ohms)
Now let's look at some name brand price point speakers that people often buy.
KRK Rockit 8: The woofer is driven by an amp rated at 70 watts (no THD info available)
KRK sub 10: The woofer is driven by an amp rated at 150 Watts ( Continuous @ 1% THD+N @ 100Hz )
Adam A7: The woofer is driven by an amp rated at 50 watts (no THD info available)
Genelec 8040a: The woofer is driven by an amp rated at 90 watts (no THD info available)
Even the venerable NS10 can be considered. They sound a lot different when you have a nice amp driving them. They sound nasty when you don't. So, if someone is speaking of NS-10s I am immediately curious about the rest of their speaker system. Is it powered by Bryston? Or Alesis?
A lot of folks have stumbled in to the circumstance where great reviews and sort of good enough sound seems to justify spending money on what is actually low grade gear... and they end up listening to mush in the low frequency areas when they need to actually be listening to what is in the sound file.
It's not any bodies fault that good speaker systems cost a whole lot of money... they do and nobody can change that so most vendors have adopted a price point take all your budget approach to distribution. A lot of companies don't even bother making a good speaker because they know that very few people will save up the money to buy an actual good system.
We all know what it costs... it's more than any of us want to spend.
If you have the nerve to be critical about what you are listening to you should endeavor to listen to an amp that couples with your speaker to realize a system that reproduces your sound file accurately.
If you start with "mush", and then you add a subwoofer you get "mush +".
Try to avoid that.
If you start with a play back system that is adequately specified and then use some old fashioned speaker placement recommendations (get the speakers off the walls) you will find it is not so hard to make a mix that translates to other systems.
BTW, effective speaker placement is FREE, and it's effective. That's why I recommend it before any other compensation or purchase of yet another low grade speaker system.
It seems to me that a good place to start is with one really good speaker system. There's no merit in owning several examples of why bother speaker systems when what is really useful is to have at least one setup that is worth listening critically too.
In my opinion, adequate power and just about any speaker is a more useful choice than any of the fancy under powered price point boxes the sales guys stick people with these days.
How many times do you have to get stuck with mush before you can have waited to purchase something adequate?
It took me while to save up for the primary speaker systems I use every day... but I knew it was worth every penny... and I'm glad to have the perspective of someone who enjoys good sound on speakers that I don't have to think of as adversaries.
Disclaimer for those that need it spelled out: The facts I posted are facts. The opinions and conclusions I have drawn by interpreting the facts are my personal opinion.
:-)
Oh btw, did I mention speaker placement? It's free and incredibly effective.
:-)
all the very best,
mike
That's great stuff Mike...especially what you said about the NS-10's and even those new NS-10 replacements...H something or other...can't remember the exact model, but I used them 2 weeks ago. I use a Hafler 500 stereo power amp and a Hafler 250 that I love. It makes an incredible difference on the NS 10's that in my opinion, need all the help they can get. LOL! I have to say though, I sort of disagree with the comments about the powered monitors these days. The first few generations of these may have been the mush case, but I sincerely think they have improved things to where they are gearing these amps at lower power to still deliver the goods. The only powered monitors I have are the Adams and my Rokits...and neither sounds like mush to me. My mixes are translating well everywhere so though there may be some truth to what you say there, I sincerely feel things have come a long way. But I can say this...I HAVE noticed a great difference between some of my old power amps and the Haflers. I have a few Crown amps around here as well as an old Tascam and a Carver (not CarVIN lol) that I used for years....the Hafler obliterates them to where you can really hear a difference. With my powered monitors, they get the same rich, crisp quality that I get from the monitors that are powered by my Haflers. Like....the sound is different because the monitors all have their own characteristics, but you can tell the song I'm listening to is transferring properly because it sounds the same on all my systems. Put in the Crown, Carver or the Tascam, and there's definitely a quality difference to where the monitors powered by those amps take on a new form. I'd also have to say that in my experience, the cheaper monitors by say Alesis and Mackie have sort of that "mush" sound going on. I don't think those companies push as hard to deliver the goods in their powered monitors the way Event, Genelec or Adam may. You can just tell there's a drastic difference that isn't just coming from the monitor characteristics themselves. It's just something you'd have to live with and experience for yourself for a decent amount of time and you'd see/hear what I mean with the newer powered monitors. The newer more pro stuff seems to be geared to deliver the goods in all areas...at least that's been my experience with it. :)
My Site Fractal Audio Endorsed Artist & Beta Tester
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Guitarhacker
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Re:Monitors - what makes up a "decent" system?
2012/08/23 09:36:06
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All I can do John is tell you what I do here.
I use Mackie MR-5 monitors. I have a "home stereo" Polk Audio sub. (10" 100w ) and I use ARC.
The MR-5's: I went to the music store and auditioned numerous "studio reference monitors" all side by side with the same program material. I don't care what anybody says that these things are supposed to be flat, and yeah I agree they are supposed to be, BUT....listening to them side by side with the same material through them, they all have their own unique sound. So, buy a pair that you have auditioned and like the way they sound.
Most stores have a 30 day no questions return policy so if they sound like crap at home.... you can always take them back.
BUT... if they sound like crap at home.... it might not be the speakers. They are supposed to be flat and non-colored. Stereo speakers and car speakers are specifically designed to be biased to one degree or another to make the music sound as good as possible..... so less than perfect sound from studio monitors is not a problem.
It simply means that hopefully, you are now, actually hearing what the mix really sounds like. So dig in and mix it so it sounds good on the flatter response studio monitors.
I added a Polk Audio 10" sub to the studio when I found it on sale at a no-brainer price. The sub simply allows me to hear what is happening in the lower end of the spectrum. A pair of 5" speakers can only move so much air.
Using this setup, I was able to get a good mix that seems to translate well to stereo, MP3 player and car. In the search to improve that even more, I too opted to purchase ARC and set it up.
In the studio set up I have, I am not able to do much in the way of acoustic treatment to the room. It is a corner of an upstairs room that doubles as my office as well and my wife will not allow anything drastic/visible. The room has carpet, furniture, and acoustic tiles for the ceiling and sounds OK. But, I know it is not the ideal acoustic environment. To try to compensate for that I have ARC. I set it up and have it turned on when I am in the mixing stages in the music. It compensates to one degree or another for some (not all) of the room deficiencies. So I do believe it is making an improvement in the mixes I have used it on.
If you are mixing with cans..... I have done that too, and still do when there is a need to work quietly, I have no problem with folks who need to mix with cans, but understand that they are not getting the best mix that way. The first and best thing you can do is to purchase a pair of studio monitors. The sub and ARC can come later. Get a pair you like and fit your budget. For me...$300 to $500 would be a good starting budget. The smaller cones are in the lower price range. 8" cones sound better with more low end but are a few hundred more per pair. For home studio use, the $300/pair average price works well.
If you read Mike Senior's book on audio, (Mixing Secrets) he starts the first few chapters with monitors...he digs deep into the various kinds, strengths and weaknesses of each kind, and much much more that is some interesting stuff on a very technical level........and it's easy to become very confused but essentially, buy a pair you like and learn their sound, their strengths and weaknesses, and learn how to mix good sounding stuff on them given all the unique characteristics of the space you mix and work in.
Hope this helped you clarify.
My website & music: www.herbhartley.com MC4/5/6/X1e.c, on a Custom DAW Focusrite Firewire Saffire Interface BMI/NSAI "Just as the blade chooses the warrior, so too, the song chooses the writer "
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AT
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Re:Monitors - what makes up a "decent" system?
2012/08/23 10:26:51
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JD, my jeep has a good system but it brings out certain high frequencies, making the sibilence pronounced in many singers and certain other sounds harsh and distorted (I'm talking about synth noises, not so much traditional sounds). After burning a CD I check those. My home computer speakers (where I'm sitting now) sound good but will fart on certain bass frequencies. My home bookshelf speakers in the living room sound pretty good for a real-world representation but have their own limitiations.
All these systems have their own compromises that I, as an engineer, have to compensate for on my superior monitors. They don't show some of the above flaws, which mean they are flawed, only less so. It means the best system in the world can't mimic the flaws of bad systems - it is up to you to compensate. The best system (speakers and room) can get rid of the big problems in translating to other system, but can't show the smaller flaws inherent in other systems. You have to figure that out and compromise the mix for these other systems.
As to your specific question - what to buy, it depends upon how much you spend. A local studio I frequent is always changing the main montiors - genlecs, Adams, etc. etc. For the 2nd montiors the best have been the Yama MPS 5s, now replaced by the Polanis. But for your only speakers, in order to have some bass, the mps 7s would be the way I'd go (my speakers here are old Yamas so I'm biased). You have a price range from $400 - $1000 for those speakers which will last a long time and you won't have to replace - only augement. They are all fairly flat and will give a good representation of what is going on and, most importantly, will let you hear when you overcompensate for other systems.
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JD1813
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Re:Monitors - what makes up a "decent" system?
2012/08/23 11:35:10
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you guys have all given some great info on placement, room treatment, models & types of speakers, and the aspects of bass vs. good frequencies to consider. whew! For me, it's a lot to take in but I do realize that the whole studio monitor issue is one we all struggle with. I should toss in that like many of us, I simply can't run up a high powered amp due to the location of my house and the room my studio is in. But out of necessity, I am getting away from so much mixing in the cans and trying to cross-check output using several different speakers - heck with the neighbors! I have a very un-treated room to work in, affecting both mic recording as well as monitor mix output. So I'm going to have to look into what I can do to better equip it for acoustics, and I like the idea behind the ARC room treatment as well.... All this discussion reminded me though, when I think one of you mentioned Alesis. I just moved to this house last year, but still tucked away in my closet I actually have an Alesis Studio One close-field monitor system with matching RA-100 100watt/channel amp. I bought the darn system a few years back to use strictly as a performance output to my Alesis QS7 synth. I never tried it as a studio monitor system. Now I'm like.... DUH. Maybe it's time to place this thing out on my studio desk, dust it off and fire it up as a real monitor - surely that's got to be more accurate than the fancy PC-level subwoofer systems I been using to mix with. I'll be hooking that stuff up this weekend and will come back here and report on that result - I'm really looking to do a test where the resulting output MP3 sounds fairly acceptable on any of 3-4 systems including cans, car stereo, and several speaker systems. In other words, can I trust what I hear as output from the mix, prior to hitting "export all audio...". One more point to ask you all about though, occurred to me last night: My DAW interface is the external USB box Edirol FX4. It had default buttons on it for playback and for record. My monitor speakers presently plug into that 1/4" front jack same as where I'd plug in my phones. I see this as my only option for listening to the accuracy of the mix - correct? I sure don't want to use any other output jack, such as my notebook computer's headphone output i.e. realtek output, correct? you guys are great, thanks! - John 
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IK Obi
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Re:Monitors - what makes up a "decent" system?
2012/08/23 12:44:05
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Aww thanks for all the ARC love guys! :D
post edited by IK Obi - 2012/08/23 12:46:14
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droddey
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Re:Monitors - what makes up a "decent" system?
2012/08/23 14:18:17
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Uttimately, no matter what, you will need to do three things:
1. Get your room treated so that, at least at the mixing position, you can hear what's coming out of the speakers with reasonable accuracy. This involves the position of the listening position, the position of the speakers relative to your head and the walls, and if it's a fairly small room getting a good bit of bass trappage in there. Ultimately something like ARC can only do so much. It can't deal with cancellations and they are as bad as peaks. Reducing the bass energy that comes back to the listening position is utltimately the only way to really get it right.
Read up some on the appropriate use of bass traps, and how to use room measurement software to measure the response of your room at your head position. Then start experimenting and see how flat you can get it. Start with the obvious trap positions and work from there.
2. Learn how your particular setup translates. Lots of great songs have been mixed on NS-10s or Mackie HR824s, which are hardly high endy. The folks who used them learned their characteristics and how they translate. If you are hearing pretty accurately what is coming out of the speakers, then you can listen to commercial tracks that you like and hear how they sound in your room, and then how they sound in the other speaker systems you use to check your mixes, and not how they differ. There's no need for you to get freaked out when your own mixes differ in the same ways, it's not your mix it's just the environment.
3. Learn about calibrated monitoring environments. Our ears change in sensitivity to the balance of mids vs. highs/lows depending on volume. You want to have a standard reference level in the room (SPL) that you can always get back to. You can always cheak it higher and lower, but having that standard level means that you have a way to compare the balance between mixes on a fair playing field. And a way to insure that you listen to commercial CDs at a fair SPL compared to your mixes.
Calibrated monitoring systems also provide a natural means to get the right amount of compression. If a particular mix level on your DAW's meters corresponds to a particular SPL in the room, the only way to make it louder or softer is by adjusting the RMS levels of the mix. So you get a natural feel for how much compression to use. Too little and the low parts are too low. Too much and it starts getting too loud. If you have it set up so that well balanced, appropriately compressed mixes sound just right, then you have a better change of catching when something isn't right.
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Guitarhacker
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Re:Monitors - what makes up a "decent" system?
2012/08/23 14:36:50
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John.... your interface appears to have line outputs on the back. I would connect the powered monitors to those outputs. Turn the monitors down before you connect them.
I power my monitors from the back of the Saffire I use. It has 4 pairs of outputs which I use for several things. Monitors, stereo system, headphone amp, and sub.
I don't use the interface headphone jack for anything.
My website & music: www.herbhartley.com MC4/5/6/X1e.c, on a Custom DAW Focusrite Firewire Saffire Interface BMI/NSAI "Just as the blade chooses the warrior, so too, the song chooses the writer "
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JD1813
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Re:Monitors - what makes up a "decent" system?
2012/08/23 14:38:10
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Thanks for these good points, Dean! I especially was not thinking about the need for calibrating the room for a standard reference, and that makes a lot of sense. One point I liked about Mike's one post up above was the need to get the monitors off the wall and into a good placement. I will be taking this into account tonight as I'm going to set up my Alesis monitors for some tests, trying varous placements. I know that my "near field" monitors are meant to be set fairly close up front like a foot and a half away from the listener. I'd never mount them on a wall. Aside from some specialized software such as ARC that has been touched on, how does one really test for "bass trappage"? Is there "room measurement software" that's readily available to test a room? I'm researching this issue right now as well as the common remedies for the problems. Again, my sincere thanks to all, for a very informative and eye-opening thread! ~ John
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JD1813
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Re:Monitors - what makes up a "decent" system?
2012/08/23 14:44:10
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Guitarhacker
John.... your interface appears to have line outputs on the back. I would connect the powered monitors to those outputs. Turn the monitors down before you connect them.
I power my monitors from the back of the Saffire I use. It has 4 pairs of outputs which I use for several things. Monitors, stereo system, headphone amp, and sub.
I don't use the interface headphone jack for anything.
Herb: you're right! I have at least two RCA OUTs on the back of the Edirol box, so I SHOULD be using those rather than my front-end headphone jack, to go to my monitoring. UGH! I was probably correct to be concerned that all along I have not been getting a true output of my mix, the output would be getting colored by all the Edirol's built-in mixing FX in its playback mode, when I listen on that headphone port. Great! Thank you for pointing out I have direct outputs that I should be using! (wow, I can't wait to get home and get to tearing the place apart for testing all this...!)
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Kalle Rantaaho
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Re:Monitors - what makes up a "decent" system?
2012/08/23 15:23:10
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JD1813
I should toss in that like many of us, I simply can't run up a high powered amp due to the location of my house and the room my studio is in. But out of necessity, I am getting away from so much mixing in the cans and trying to cross-check output using several different speakers - heck with the neighbors! I have a very un-treated room to work in, affecting both mic recording as well as - John
The high power active loudspeakers do not mean you need to mix using high volume. The good volume for the basic work is around 85 dB, which means you hardly need to raise your voice to have a conversation.
SONAR PE 8.5.3, Asus P5B, 2,4 Ghz Dual Core, 4 Gb RAM, GF 7300, EMU 1820, Bluetube Pre - Kontakt4, Ozone, Addictive Drums, PSP Mixpack2, Melda Creative Pack, Melodyne Plugin etc. The benefit of being a middle aged amateur is the low number of years of frustration ahead of you.
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JD1813
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Re:Monitors - what makes up a "decent" system?
2012/08/23 15:29:54
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excellent! Thanks, Kalle, my neighbors will appreciate that! By the way I really like your signature quote! - John
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bitflipper
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Re:Monitors - what makes up a "decent" system?
2012/08/23 15:58:14
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room treatment can sometimes be is nearly always more critical than the monitors. Fixed.
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