Mono bouncing Louder

go find altimaboy's pan law page... it will explain.

ORIGINAL: Melodeath

Hmm, could you provide a link? I just searched the forum and google and couldn't find it.

Thanks

http://forum.cakewalk.com/fb.asp?m=1344591 There are a couple of links at the end of the post to take you to the Pan Law table

HTH

Tom

For some reason the -3db pan law seems to be 6dB lower than the 0dB pan law. You think it would be 3dB, not 6dB. No?

Secondly, It seems no matter what I do, I cannot bounce my mono guitar track to mono without winding up with a file that's 3dB louder than expected. How can you bounce to mono without affect track volume? I suppose since my mono track is routed to the master bus (I can't seem to find a way to create a mono bus in sonar) the signal is on the left and right channel. So when you export to mono, L and R are summed. But isn't the whole point of pan law that when you sum you get the same volume out?

Maybe I've looked so deep into this that I've confused myself.

CJaysMusic,

You get the same level out if you bounce to mono? Everything's fine if I boucne to stereo. It's when I bounce to mono that I'm getting a 3dB increase.

As for the pan law, I'm not sure what I could be setting wrong. I go into audio options and change the pan law between the first and second option, and lookign at the track meters, there's a 6 dB difference, rather than a 3 dB difference. This is regardless of bouncing. I'm just lookign at peaks ont he meters. -3dB center, sin/cos taper seems to be 6db lower overall than 0dB center, sin/cos taper.

Im just trying to bounce a mono recorded track to mono

The Pan Laws affect audio in Sonar 6 in the following manner.

*** "w/o track automation" exports, the "Raw Tracks - No Automation/FX" preset was used
so panning does not affect export levels.

*** "with track automation" exports, the "Raw Tracks - No Automation/FX" preset was chosen first
followed by selecting "track automation" in the mix enable list. Panning will affect export levels.

Discussion and Testing Procedure are described at the end of the document.
Last Updated: 02/25/2007

//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
0 dB Center, sin/cos taper, constant power
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

|- w/o track automation -| |- With track automation -|
Clip Type Track Interleave Panning Playback Export Mono Export Stereo Export Mono Export Stereo
==================================================================================================================
Mono Mono Center 0 dB 0 dB 0 dB 0 dB 0 dB
Mono Mono L 100% +3 dB 0 dB 0 dB 0 dB +3 dB
Mono Stereo Center 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB
Mono Stereo L 100% 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB
Stereo Mono Center +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB
Stereo Mono L 100% +6 dB +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB +6 dB
Stereo Stereo Center 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB
Stereo Stereo L 100% 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB



//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
-3 dB Center, sin/cos taper, constant power
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

|- w/o track automation -| |- With track automation -|
Clip Type Track Interleave Panning Playback Export Mono Export Stereo Export Mono Export Stereo
==================================================================================================================
Mono Mono Center -3 dB -3 dB -3 dB -3 dB -6 dB
Mono Mono L 100% 0 dB -3 dB -3 dB -3 dB -3 dB
Mono Stereo Center 0 dB 0 dB -3 dB 0 dB -3 dB
Mono Stereo L 100% 0 dB 0 dB -3 dB 0 dB -3 dB
Stereo Mono Center 0 dB +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB 0 dB
Stereo Mono L 100% +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB
Stereo Stereo Center 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB
Stereo Stereo L 100% 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB



//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
0 dB Center, square-root taper, constant power
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

|- w/o track automation -| |- With track automation -|
Clip Type Track Interleave Panning Playback Export Mono Export Stereo Export Mono Export Stereo
==================================================================================================================
Mono Mono Center 0 dB 0 dB 0 dB 0 dB 0 dB
Mono Mono L 100% +3 dB 0 dB 0 dB 0 dB +3 dB
Mono Stereo Center 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB
Mono Stereo L 100% 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB
Stereo Mono Center +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB
Stereo Mono L 100% +6 dB +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB +6 dB
Stereo Stereo Center 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB
Stereo Stereo L 100% 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB



//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
-3 dB Center, square-root taper, constant power
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

|- w/o track automation -| |- With track automation -|
Clip Type Track Interleave Panning Playback Export Mono Export Stereo Export Mono Export Stereo
==================================================================================================================
Mono Mono Center -3 dB -3 dB -3 dB -3 dB -6 dB
Mono Mono L 100% 0 dB -3 dB -3 dB -3 dB -3 dB
Mono Stereo Center 0 dB 0 dB -3 dB 0 dB -3 dB
Mono Stereo L 100% 0 dB 0 dB -3 dB 0 dB -3 dB
Stereo Mono Center 0 dB +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB 0 dB
Stereo Mono L 100% +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB
Stereo Stereo Center 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB
Stereo Stereo L 100% 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB



//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
-6 dB Center, linear taper
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

|- w/o track automation -| |- With track automation -|
Clip Type Track Interleave Panning Playback Export Mono Export Stereo Export Mono Export Stereo
==================================================================================================================
Mono Mono Center -6 dB -6 dB -6 dB -6 dB -12 dB
Mono Mono L 100% 0 dB -6 dB -6 dB -6 dB - 6 dB
Mono Stereo Center 0 dB -3 dB -6 dB -3 dB - 6 dB
Mono Stereo L 100% 0 dB -3 dB -6 dB -3 dB - 6 dB
Stereo Mono Center -3 dB +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB - 3 dB
Stereo Mono L 100% +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB + 3 dB
Stereo Stereo Center 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB
Stereo Stereo L 100% 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB



//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
0 dB Center, Balance Control
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

|- w/o track automation -| |- With track automation -|
Clip Type Track Interleave Panning Playback Export Mono Export Stereo Export Mono Export Stereo
==================================================================================================================
Mono Mono Center 0 dB 0 dB 0 dB 0 dB 0 dB
Mono Mono L 100% 0 dB 0 dB 0 dB 0 dB 0 dB
Mono Stereo Center 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB
Mono Stereo L 100% 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB
Stereo Mono Center +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB
Stereo Mono L 100% +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB
Stereo Stereo Center 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB
Stereo Stereo L 100% 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Discussion and Testing Method Description
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This chart describes Sonar meter values relative to the peak values of the clips in the tracks and not Sonar meters
compared to exported file levels, although this can be deduced from the data by comparing Playback values to Export
values. In almost all cases the playback (ie Sonar's meter) levels are exactly the same as exported file levels or
are +/- 3 dB different as a result of any stereo->mono conversion and/or pan law.

If you rely solely on Sonar's meters to determine levels and understand stereo->mono conversion then, in general,
you don't have to worry or think about levels. The issues develop when you really want to maintain the original
clip levels such as when exporting raw (and possibly edited) tracks for use in other software. However, since Sonar
is a mixer it will still send the clips through multiple types of processing even when you disable all the options
on the export dialog. The chart describes how clips are affected when exporting them through this minimal and
"unbypassable" set of processing.

There are some cases where center-panned tracks have different levels depending on whether track automation is
selected or not. They are not panned so track automation should theoretically not affect them. These only seem to
occur in the -3 and -6 center pan laws though.


Here is the testing method used to create the tables above:

1. Create 2 short (~30 second) audio files that are (severely) hard limited to have a near-constant peak of -8 dBFS
(for simplicity and easy reproducibility). For the stereo file, both channels should peak at -8 dBFS. These clips
are best created in a separate audio editor. Under theoretical conditions both files should show a peak value of
-8 dBFS.

2. Create project with 8 tracks. Put the mono clips on the 1st four tracks and the stereo clips on the other 4
tracks. Adjust the interleave and panning on the 8 tracks to correspond to the 8 scenarios.

3. Set the pan law.

4. Play back the project, look at Sonar's meter on each track, and compare them relative to the -8 dBFS theoretical
value.

To test the export values:

5. Click Edit->Select->None

6. Open Export dialog, create file name, uncheck all "mix enable" options except fast bounce, choose source as
"Tracks". Do not alter sample rate from the original sample rate of the clips.

7. Choose file type and check automation as appropriate

8. Export the files

9. Open the 8 individual files in an audio editor and read/record the peak value in the file relative to the
theoretical -8 dBFS value.

Repeat starting from step 3 for testing the other pan laws.

Again, the chart values are relative so for example, +3 dB = -5 dBFS and -3 dB = -11 dBFS, etc. With good naming of
tracks and export files along with competency with an external audio editor the process can be simplified and
streamlined. In fact, every value in the chart could probably be verified in under 60 minutes once the project and
clips are setup.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Let's settle on two definitions, if we can.
Export: This creates a new file that is not included in the project.

Bounce: This creates a new track in the project.

I've had problems when BOUNCING a mono track, panned to center, and it is 3db hotter than the original.
This was using TRackS with the limiter engaged. Shouldn't the new track be EXACTLY what I was seeing,
in this case, on the Master Buss?

I understand that two speakers add in the air to create a 3dB increase. But I'm talking about exporting a mono clip to a mono file. Why should there be any increase?

Furthermore, even according to the chart, it should be 0dB. It's a mono clip, the interleave on the clip is mono, and I'm exporting as mono. Should be 0dB. I even tried turning the master buss interleave to mono, and the clip is sitll exported at 3dB hotter.

Also, can anyone else try switching between the first and second pan law options in Sonar? I'm getting a 6dB difference between the pan laws, as opposed to a 3dB difference. In otherwords, with -3db center, sin/cos, the pan law itself is fine. The center is 3dB lower than the sides, but, the center and sides are both 6dB quieter than the first pan law (0dB, sin/cos taper).

ORIGINAL: CJaysMusic

But I'm talking about exporting a mono clip to a mono file. Why should there be any increase?

I dont get an increase when i bounce mono tracks. Are you even considering the sourse of the bounce?? I never heard you say your sourse? Is it tracks? Bus's? Main outs?? THese are things that effect your bounce. When you understand how they effect and take in affect all levels at each point in the signal chain will raise or lower your signal.

For instance, if you pick tracks as sourse, your master bus will not be in the bounce and any other bus for that matter. Thats just one senerio
Cj

I see. When I export with Tracks as the source, the volume is not increased. However, the file name (semi-annoyingly) adds "Track 1" to the name I have chosen to export as.
I guess it was increasing volume by 3dB bc the master fader is a stereo bus. Is there a way to do mono busses in Sonar?

Also, have you noticed the 6dB difference in the first 2 pan laws?

ORIGINAL: CJaysMusic

However, the file name (semi-annoyingly) adds "Track 1" to the name I have chosen to export as.

You can change the name of any file that you want.

Is there a way to do mono busses in Sonar?

Yes, you ddint have to ask, all you need to due is change the interleave of the bus and see that it will,... and it will convert the signal to a mono signal.

You mean just changing the file name in Windows Explorer? Yeah, true, but it would be nice if you could tell Sonar to not append "Track 1" tot he file name you enter.

The interleave is where things get a bit weird iirc. I tried exporting through the master bus when I had turned the master bus interleave to mono, and I still got a 3dB increase. I suppose I'll try it again.

But nothing was ever stereo. I have a mono clip that I want to route to a mono master bus. Why would changing the interleave to mono on the master cause a 3dB increase when bouncing?


Furthermore, the only pan laws I've ever tested are the first two options, both of which, from a relative standpoint, are 3db less in the center than L and R. So, none of the pan laws I've used should be making anything in the center louder.

I think the 3db increase occured bc I bounced "entire mix" which includes the routing to my audio interface monitoring, which is stereo obviously. I guess even when a mono bus goes to the monitoring, it's signal is copied to L and R, and then added together when bounced to mono. Still, isn't the point of the pan law so that when L and R add together, they don't cause an increase in C?
Hmm, I guess creating a mono bounce is different from just putting something in the Center.

CJ,
I think I'm starting to get it. Mono track > stereo buss with limiter set at -1dB > bouncing to a mono final track. 2 tracks are created and mixed to create the mono track, which is now 3dB hotter.
If I had let Sonar create the stereo track both sides would have been a -1 or whatever I was seeing on the stereo buss, right?
Do I pass?

Thanks,
Tom

Im just trying to bounce a mono recorded track to mono

I'm talking about exporting a mono clip to a mono file.

At the top of the thread you said "I've got a single mono recorded guitar track, routed to the master buss. The master bus is peaking at -0.6. When I export the mix as mono, the exported file clips."

If you're exporting the master bus(s), that's stereo, not mono. Even if your project contains a single mono track, SONAR busses are stereo.

If, however, you did explicitly export a mono track, I would expect the level to be exactly what it was in the project, without the 3db increase.

EDIT: Sorry, I should have read to the end. I see you've already figured this out. Sorry for the redundancy.

Right, and CJ busted his butt trying to explain it to you

I feel used and kinda dirty... I believe this thread caused me health problems. Zanax anyone??
Cj

LOL.. I just came back from my yearly physical and my EKG was weird. Im scheduled for an Echo cardiogram Friday. Damn this thread...

Im scared to click on the link above... Is it the same person???