Helpful ReplyMore separation with individual reverbs

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pilutiful
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2017/05/20 14:26:46 (permalink)

More separation with individual reverbs

A note to myself and anyone else interested :-)
I learned from various tutorials that it can be a good idea to use a single reverb for multiple tracks, f.ex. one aux reverb for multiple vocals or guitars. The benefit is less cpu usage. I developed a habit of always doing that without really thinking about it. After struggling with a muddy mix I tried to go away from that for left/right panned tracks. This has resulted in much more clarity and separation. Especially good for songs with many tracks.

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pilutiful
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Re: More separation with individual reverbs 2017/05/20 14:30:45 (permalink)
Sorry, I thought I was posting in Techniques forum...

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scook
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Re: More separation with individual reverbs 2017/05/20 14:32:31 (permalink)
moved
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Re: More separation with individual reverbs 2017/05/20 14:45:01 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby pilutiful 2017/05/20 16:32:28
I like this approach (see from 5:30)


 
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Re: More separation with individual reverbs 2017/05/20 15:08:33 (permalink)
Kamikaze
I like this approach (see from 5:30)



Nice 
Thanks for sharing.
All the best.

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pilutiful
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Re: More separation with individual reverbs 2017/05/20 16:37:50 (permalink)
Kamikaze
I like this approach (see from 5:30)



Cool...thanks

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Re: More separation with individual reverbs 2017/05/20 18:01:57 (permalink)
I'm not sure what you did before but it's worth noting that sends also have pan controls and it usually makes sense to pan the send the same way you panned the track, for the exact reason you mentioned.
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pilutiful
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Re: More separation with individual reverbs 2017/05/20 18:35:53 (permalink)
Sanderxpander
I'm not sure what you did before but it's worth noting that sends also have pan controls and it usually makes sense to pan the send the same way you panned the track, for the exact reason you mentioned.

Did that...still the reverb plugin spread the sound a bit, even if I pan hard. It's a very dense mix where these little things count. 

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Re: More separation with individual reverbs 2017/05/20 22:58:21 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby pilutiful 2017/05/21 09:25:50
Use channel tools to shrink the stereo width of the reverb(s) and put them exactly where you want.

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Re: More separation with individual reverbs 2017/05/21 01:28:56 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby pilutiful 2017/05/21 09:26:03
Reverb diffusion can usually be narrowed within the reverb plugin itself. I've done things like using three separate reverb busses: one stereophonic and normally spread for the lead vocal, and two narrowed and panned L/R for the backing vocals and hard-panned instruments (usually panned to the opposite reverb bus as their mix pan). If your reverb plugin can't do it, you can use Channel Tools to steer them where you want, as Steve suggests.
 
It's actually a neat effect, but a) not very natural-sounding and b) too much of a hassle to use every day. Maybe I'm too old-school, but I think of electronic reverb as an emulation of a real-world phenomenon. And in the real world, natural reverberation isn't neatly separated into left and right - that smeary muddiness is the reason for reverb in the first place! 
 
Another easy trick for getting better separation: use a delay or a ducking compressor in front of the reverb. This will let you use fatter, fuller-spectrum reverbs without them muddying the mix. As a corollary to that technique, try using a ping-pong delay or tempo-synced auto-panner in front of the reverb. No, it surely does not enhance separation or clarity, but it sounds cool.
 


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Re: More separation with individual reverbs 2017/05/21 19:44:24 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby glennstanton 2017/05/25 13:56:24
If you want to know how to do reverb properly, think like a sculptor!
 
Me, I use a separate verb for voice, drums, guitars, acoustics, and even sfx. True story, and how do I stop it sounding like a big pile of shiny ****e? Well, as bit suggest diffusion is important, second proper gain staging out to the busses, understanding how verb works in the real world, so for a room roll off at 80hz between 3 to 6 db, roll off the top end at 4k, same amount. Then there is the secret special sauce, virtual binaural sound...literally you pump the verb up into 3d, this doesn't just work for headphones mind you...it helps the sound diffuse into the air when listening on stereo speakers. Of course, I'm not giving you the whole formula...there are a couple more steps that are needed. If I gave away all my secrets, well...
 
Ben
 
Here is a track I prepared earlier https://youtu.be/46MA8Uw1w8c enjoy
 

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bapu
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Re: More separation with individual reverbs 2017/05/21 22:40:08 (permalink)
Fab DuPont = Give Secrets Away For Free
Ben = Nope, only some secrets are given away for free.
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Re: More separation with individual reverbs 2017/05/22 03:34:06 (permalink)
bapu
Fab DuPont = Give Secrets Away For Free
Ben = Nope, only some secrets are given away for free.


You wouldn't believe me if I told you, and I gave enough of the cake recipe for those who really want an advanced verb technique to work it out :)

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Starise
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Re: More separation with individual reverbs 2017/05/22 12:58:04 (permalink)
I sometimes use multiple reverbs in the same send in series. I'll take the tail of one and combine it with the main body of another reverb. I might also use multiple sends.
 
Most reverb gives you a lot of control over the sound. Diffusion, frequency cuts, feedback, etc.. In a send you can  use EQ to cut out some of the low frequency mud of the reverb, even add tone coloring and compression. You can automate the  volume/EQ/panning and come up with some cool ideas.  All depending on what you want to achieve and the reverb or reverbs you use. 
 
What I've found in my own experience is what sounds good for most mixes isn't necessarily a real reverb sound as in a convolution or real space.
 
To clean up the mud and retain the nice airy reverb feel I have found that not feeding any low mids or bass into the verb usually gives me the results I'm after. Plug ins like vitamin can help to loose a lot of that low end mush and only pan the parts you want to hear in the stereo field.

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batsbrew
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Re: More separation with individual reverbs 2017/05/22 14:27:59 (permalink)
there really is no point in using any more than one reverb,
unless it's for a special effect.
 
the idea is to create a soundscape that gives the impression of 'space' and 'room'....
 
using any more than one reverb, to me, just does not make sense.
 
now, that said, i routinely setup two reverbs.
 
LOL
 
i like a certain 'room' effect on drums, if i use dry samples for example, and i'll have a reverb dedicated to just drums.
 
then, a master 'verb' that gives me the room or space sound i want across the entire recording.
 
but yes,
setting up a single instance,
then sending the levels from the individual tracks via SENDS, lets you not only set the amount of reverb you want, 
but also lets you pan the reverb (assuming you are using a mono instance),
which is a trick i learned from steven wilson, who learned it from robert fripp.... that if you pan your effect to match the pan of your track, you can separate out reverbs even more that way.
 
and i'll often pan a track hard right (like a conga) and pan the reverb the opposite side.
works for guitars and vox.

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Re: More separation with individual reverbs 2017/05/24 12:59:18 (permalink)
Or there's the Mike Senior way:
 
  1. Reverb for Size
  2. Reverb for Width
  3. Reverb for Blend
  4. Reverb for Tone
  5. Reverb for Sustain

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batsbrew
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Re: More separation with individual reverbs 2017/05/24 14:03:14 (permalink)
that sounds like a recipe for mud!


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Re: More separation with individual reverbs 2017/05/24 17:45:49 (permalink)
batsbrew
there really is no point in using any more than one reverb,
unless it's for a special effect.
 
 




Rob, not everyone is doing rock songs...other genres are available...

 
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batsbrew
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Re: More separation with individual reverbs 2017/05/25 00:24:17 (permalink)
still....
mud.
LOL
 
 
it kinda dismisses the entire logic behind even having reverb...
 
you are trying to set a sound in a 'space'
 
how many spaces do you really need?
and where in the real world would you ever hear those spaces all together in one stereoscape?
 
so, i personally question the effectiveness, or even the choice of it...
 
but, like a lot of things in life,
there are no rules.
 
i'd love to hear a GOOD example of a mix with multiple reverbs like that.
 

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Kamikaze
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Re: More separation with individual reverbs 2017/05/25 01:13:32 (permalink)
Did you watch the Fab Dupont Video on three reverbs I linked?

 
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pilutiful
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Re: More separation with individual reverbs 2017/05/25 10:31:37 (permalink)
batsbrew
still....
mud.
LOL
 
 
it kinda dismisses the entire logic behind even having reverb...
 
you are trying to set a sound in a 'space'
 
how many spaces do you really need?
and where in the real world would you ever hear those spaces all together in one stereoscape?
 
so, i personally question the effectiveness, or even the choice of it...
 
but, like a lot of things in life,
there are no rules.
 
i'd love to hear a GOOD example of a mix with multiple reverbs like that.
 




this is an incredibly dense mix with many tracks...I use reverb more to give the tracks a little bit of flavor - at least for the instruments. Separation is hard to achieve (at least for me!), but I feel this trick helped. I ran out of frequencies for complementary EQ :)
My tip is probably more for very dense mixes....
 
Kamikaze
Did you watch the Fab Dupont Video on three reverbs I linked?




Yes I did. But I would say this is more good for acoustic (not dense) songs like the one they he was mixing :)

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interpolated
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Re: More separation with individual reverbs 2017/05/25 10:49:40 (permalink)
I don't think using more than one reverb is always unrealistic. Say you are using 3 variations of the same environment through a convolution reverb. For example, Hall A Front TS, Hall A Rear TS and Hall A Mid TS (True Stereo) on separate mix busses.  The end results could be summed to stereo or routed to surround channels. Obviously this will be better for more high resolution recordings like Classical or SACD masters.
 
Mud always occurs in the same frequency range which is why it's a good idea to mix out that on individual tracks where is a lot of shared frequencies especially the lower end of the drums like Kick, Snare and Tom. Even hi-hats and cymbals carry some low-frequency energy that need to be equalised out.
 
Algorithmic reverbs do have a lot more flexibility though. I have one such thing which combines both although I am a bit short on alternative IR (impulse response) for it.
 
On my soundcloud (soundclown) page, I have one upload which uses two reverbs and the effect is subtle but it makes a pyschoacoustic difference when you listen to one reverb alone compared to two.
 
Anyway that's what I thunk.

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Re: More separation with individual reverbs 2017/05/25 11:20:29 (permalink)
It seemed more like an UAD demo that video. That EMT 140 plate is good for vocals indeed and I would use it more if I had a better DSP processor.

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Re: More separation with individual reverbs 2017/05/25 14:02:05 (permalink)
one trick for placement (of anything in the mix) is to use the surround feature - 2.1 and then you can set width depth etc of any track - so experiment with setting the room reverb width to extend to just outside the "walls" and room delay just inside with a feed to the room reverb. :-) also, individual reverbs on the vox buss or drums buss, or even instruments (some guitars have reverb on their amps...) can increase the separation as well as the overall feel for each. automating the reverb levels, parameters, eq, etc can add interest. especially on EDM or acoustic.

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glennstanton
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Re: More separation with individual reverbs 2017/05/25 14:02:05 (permalink)
duplicated previous post for some reason...

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Re: More separation with individual reverbs 2017/05/25 19:10:25 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby pilutiful 2017/05/25 20:18:35
I don't mind this approach either of having 3 reverb setups.  It works quite well.  The tight room sound can be added in here and there on certain things.  It helps to bring them forward a little and you can then turn them down a little too. The signal has got bigger.
 
A nice reverb like Liquid Sonics Reverberate is a good thing.  They have a whole extensive section on small rooms which sound stellar.  Don't forget you can also edit a convolution reverb sound too.  I can fine tune those nice real sounding spaces.  Reverberate and others have made extensive IR libraries that actually cover all the plate reverbs too.  Including the well known plates and things like the Lexicon 480.
 
Another very interesting plugin is this one.  Panangement by Auburn Sounds.
 
https://www.auburnsounds.com/products/Panagement.html
 
This is a very interesting plugin and I got onto this watching an interesting video on mixing.  This plugin adds front to back depth to any reverb plugin and gives you extra control over the depth of the reverb.  Gives you that front to back space as well as left to right.  This plugin makes your reverbs sound a little more natural.  Any that you may have.  When you put drums say into a small drum room and use this it sounds like you are walking around the drums and away from them too if you so desire.  Of course all the parameters of this plugin can be modulated and your moves recorded, edited and played back.  That its pretty cool once you get into it.  Adding motion to a reverb space. 
 

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Kamikaze
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Re: More separation with individual reverbs 2017/05/26 02:35:52 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby glennstanton 2017/05/26 15:57:29
I always turn reverbs on synths off, and use my Reverb busses. Some where I've been on the fence with this is the room mics in AD 2, which is essentially a recorded reverb. If you use the room mics and a reverb buss, it's pretty much using more than one reverb. It makes sense to me to keep these  if you are using the whole kit, then the room mics make a kit sound together, but I mix and match my kits, and they are recorded in a number of studios. I'm pretty clueless of which is my favourite kit, as I scroll through the snares, to the one I like and scroll through the hats again. So the roommics will end up being room mics from different rooms.
 
I picked up SampleModellings Brass before Christmas, which are anechoic samples. Sample modelling implemented an early reflections reverb to help these sit in mixes easier after feedback.   I've been turning these off too. Opting to choose a buss reverb (Fab's 'The Office'). Analogue (Virtual) are sonically anechoic too. So mixing these sounds makes sense to give them the same early reflections.
 
For me Reverb isn't about Emulating a real room, but creating an atmosphere and pulling sounds together. If I was mixing a Modern Jazz group, or string quartet, then maybe I would want to simulate a believable space. But I guess guys that do this don't use reverbs anyway, but room mics and a good room. Seems that when reverb Chambers were used, they were for effect, and not for creating realism. Same for plate and spring reverbs. I think as soon as you place a you bass in the middle of a mix, you are not looking to emulate reality, but just maximize your mix.
 
Having 3 reverbs to me, creates opportunities for removing 'mud' not creating it. You don't have to use all three on every sound. If you want a sound to have a reverb, but not have too much of tail, then apply some of the 'Ambience and  'room' and no plate. If something is part of the backgrounds space, then more 'Plate or hall' and some 'room' but no 'Ambience/Office'. So using less of eachs reverb, but the blend creates the space. and different applications to each of the three helps create separation. You can then add further EQ to these to remove unwanted energy and deal with clashes.
 
 
 
 

 
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timidi
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Re: More separation with individual reverbs 2017/05/26 02:49:17 (permalink)
I've used more than 1 reverb for a while. Sometimes 3 or 4. Lately, I've been thinking, with all that mush going on, even at minimal levels, there's probably lots of weird things happening with all the different dispersions of different reverbs interacting with each other. Such as, phasing and masking. 
I do notice a certain cleanliness in the sound using just 1 (or none) reverb. Fill in the rest with delay.
 
Just a thought.
 

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jamesg1213
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Re: More separation with individual reverbs 2017/05/26 20:29:58 (permalink)
batsbrew
 
 
i'd love to hear a GOOD example of a mix with multiple reverbs like that.
 




 
This is a bit old, but Paul Russell knows his stuff, used to post here a lot. I bought this album at the time, it sounds beautiful.
 

 
Sometimes it's not about the 'real world' it's about creating a mood.

 
Jyemz
 
 
 



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interpolated
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Re: More separation with individual reverbs 2017/05/26 20:40:58 (permalink)
Impressivo

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