Kylotan
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More unreliable MIDI editing stupidity
I've been editing drums all afternoon and I kept coming across problems where somehow I'd cut some data out of one clip and inserted into a nearby clip so that they overlapped. To begin with I thought it was obviously user error. But no - after further investigation, Sonar is doing something incredibly dumb. In the .gif below, I start with 2 clips, side-by-side. I select the second clip and open it in the Piano Roll. I nudge a few notes along. I close the Piano Roll - and Sonar has extracted those notes from the second clip, and put them in the first clip.  This is utterly ridiculous behaviour. It is about as close to a data loss bug as is possible to get without the data disappearing entirely, as I discovered when linked clips elsewhere in my song no longer had the drum beats that they should have. I need to be able to rely on my editing tools to not do dumb stuff like this. When could this possibly be desired behaviour? Sadly I will probably never see a fix for this because I'm no longer a member and so I'm stuck with these bugs until I shell out the cash for a different DAW. Very frustrated right now. Consider this a bug report and a cautionary tale to others.
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Kylotan
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Re: More unreliable MIDI editing stupidity
2016/03/24 15:46:56
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(Here's the funny thing: if I lock the clip to the left so it can no longer move the notes into that clip... it adds them into the clip to the right instead.
Here's the next funny thing: if I lock both the clip to the left and the one to the right, it'll just make a new clip entirely. So I have to bounce them back together, but not before copying the clip name because Sonar isn't intelligent enough to preserve the clip name if you bounce 2 together where one is blank. Stupid.)
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mettelus
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Re: More unreliable MIDI editing stupidity
2016/03/24 17:03:45
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I can only commisserate; I cannot get too far down the MIDI path before I get frustrated.
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jpetersen
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Re: More unreliable MIDI editing stupidity
2016/03/24 19:29:57
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The move from the 8.0 era MIDI to X-series MIDI fixed things that weren't broke but didn't fix things that were. I doubt the MIDI side will ever get sorted to the extent that it becomes a joy to use. I can imagine there's a lot of interrelated stuff going on under the hood.
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Anderton
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Re: More unreliable MIDI editing stupidity
2016/03/24 19:49:47
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My theory is that after ADAT came out, combined with Pro Tools dominating the market despite a weak (to be kind) MIDI implementation and Cubase (which always had a solid MIDI implementation) slipping because their audio engine was falling behind, the general opinion was that MIDI was on the way out and digital audio was going to take over. Virtual instruments were simply a novelty at first because computers lacked the power to do them right.
But then virtual instruments, MIDI over USB, powerful computers with lots of memories, and multi-gigabyte sample libraries not only revived MIDI but put an entirely new face on it. In general, MIDI implementations need to be re-thought for today's reality. I think that starts with opacity/transparency/layers. It has become necessary to see more "layers" of MIDI these days then were common in the early days of MIDI.
And even more importantly, bring back cost-effective polyphonic aftertouch in MIDI controllers! We have computers and interface speeds that can handle it, and I wouldn't be surprised if Ensoniq's patent will expire soon, if it hasn't already. It wouldn't be necessary to do extensive editing to try and be expressive if you could play expressively and capture that in the first place (cue the Roli keyboards).
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Anderton
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Re: More unreliable MIDI editing stupidity
2016/03/24 20:41:36
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I do have a workflow for MIDI editing that works fine for me, but I don't want that to be interpreted like I'm minimizing the issues other people have or offering a workaround. The bottom line is I NEVER have the comping record mode selected while recording or editing MIDI but instead use Sound on Sound mode (sometimes Replace), work with Take Lanes, and bounce to tracks often to consolidate data. I'd be curious if those having problems with MIDI have comping mode enabled.
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brundlefly
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Re: More unreliable MIDI editing stupidity
2016/03/24 21:13:33
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☄ Helpfulby dcumpian 2016/03/25 09:17:14
Nudging in the PRV has issues. I never nudge notes, only whole clips.
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tlw
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Re: More unreliable MIDI editing stupidity
2016/03/24 21:38:30
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Anderton
And even more importantly, bring back cost-effective polyphonic aftertouch in MIDI controllers! We have computers and interface speeds that can handle it, and I wouldn't be surprised if Ensoniq's patent will expire soon, if it hasn't already. It wouldn't be necessary to do extensive editing to try and be expressive if you could play expressively and capture that in the first place (cue the Roli keyboards).
Keith McMillen's qunexus has poly aftertouch, as do the CME X-Key range. Neither is exactly what you'd call a comvemtional approach to a keyboard though. Having said that, I like the qunexus for mono-synth control. It's surprisingly expressive once you get it's programming tweaked to suit you.
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tenfoot
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Re: More unreliable MIDI editing stupidity
2016/03/24 23:31:02
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☄ Helpfulby tlw 2016/03/25 08:21:53
Anderton
The bottom line is I NEVER have the comping record mode selected while recording or editing MIDI but instead use Sound on Sound mode
There is definitely something in this idea Craig. I edit in midi about 80% of my studio time and outside of a few small annoyances have never really encountered the frustration people seem to express over Sonar's midi implementation, but I always work in Sound on Sound mode. Midi is infinitely editable - that has been it's selling point since its inception. Any other mode seems superfluous and adds unnecessary complication.
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icontakt
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Re: More unreliable MIDI editing stupidity
2016/03/25 03:38:39
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@Kylotan:
Do you have more than one Take lane in the track? I thought the PRV nudge issues only occur when there is more than one lane. If you only have one lane in the track and experience the issue, it's a new discovery!
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Kylotan
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Re: More unreliable MIDI editing stupidity
2016/03/25 05:48:54
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Polyphonic aftertouch might be nice but wouldn't make a difference in my case. Not everybody wants to perform their music as they write it. In fact I'd argue most electronic musicians prefer to be at the other extreme. I'm in Sound on Sound mode. I avoid Comping mode as it does the wrong thing the majority of the time. I have six Take Lanes in the track. Why, considering I have never recorded any data into that track at all, only dragged MIDI clips in? Who knows. The Take Lane system is utter trash and we've covered this extensively in previous threads.
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Sanderxpander
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Re: More unreliable MIDI editing stupidity
2016/03/25 06:20:53
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I sense some real frustration here.
Honestly I really like the take lane system for audio. I never really got how it was fundamentally different from layers either but it fits my workflow.
My midi editing needs are modest these days. I play most stuff and fix small bits here and there. The (for me) incidental oddities are annoying but I get around them.
The main thing I get from this thread that I wholeheartedly agree with is that I wish here would be a better way to manage the relationship between the PRV and the selected/opened clip in track view. If I double click a clip and edit it in PRV, I would prefer to ONLY see that clip and have all my edits constrained to that clip. Any clip management I want to do (merge, etc) should happen in track view where I can actually see and manage clips. If I want to move notes from one clip to another, let me cut them from one, open the next clip and paste them there. Right now it's completely unclear where your edits will end up. Even a simple clip boundary indicator (or different colors?) in PRV would be something.
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Kylotan
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Re: More unreliable MIDI editing stupidity
2016/03/25 07:00:34
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☄ Helpfulby rtucker55 2016/03/25 08:55:04
All agreed, and I've said this before. Hey, it would be nice if when double clicking a clip to edit it in PRV, it was actually guaranteed to appear in the PRV, but even that simple thing is broken. This is my life with Sonar: double clicking on the thing I want to edit, then scrolling so I can actually see that thing, performing the edit, then having to go and check it's not broken something else.
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icontakt
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Re: More unreliable MIDI editing stupidity
2016/03/25 08:07:03
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Tak T. Primary Laptop: Core i7-4710MQ CPU, 16GB RAM, 7200RPM HDD, Windows 7 Home Premium OS (Japanese) x64 SP1Secondary Laptop: Core2 Duo CPU, 8GB RAM, 7200RPM HDD, Windows 7 Professional OS (Japanese) x64 SP1Audio Interface: iD14 (ASIO)Keyboard Controller/MIDI Interface: A-800PRODAW: SONAR Platinum x64 (latest update installed)
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dcumpian
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Re: More unreliable MIDI editing stupidity
2016/03/25 09:03:33
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☄ Helpfulby rtucker55 2016/03/25 12:37:39
Let us hope midi editing gets some love in 2016...
Dan
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Snehankur
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Re: More unreliable MIDI editing stupidity
2016/03/25 10:12:49
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| CCCCCCCCC
| BBBBBBBBB
|AAAAAAAAAAAA
|CCCCCCCCCC
|BBBBBBBBBB
|AAAAAAAAAAAA
Sorry for trying in this way. What I want to mean is I can adjust start timing for the notes selecting them with Timing option from tools. Can I also stretch the note endings of the notes to match to nearest bar/beat as per steps specified?
Edit: Cannot attach screen shot.
Regards
Snehankur
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Anderton
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Re: More unreliable MIDI editing stupidity
2016/03/25 11:16:05
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Snehankur
Can I also stretch the note endings of the notes to match to nearest bar/beat as per steps specified?
There may be a CAL script for that, but I'm not aware of any option other than adjusting manually with snap on.
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Anderton
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Re: More unreliable MIDI editing stupidity
2016/03/25 11:20:44
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Kylotan
I have six Take Lanes in the track. Why, considering I have never recorded any data into that track at all, only dragged MIDI clips in? Who knows. The Take Lane system is utter trash and we've covered this extensively in previous threads.
This is why I bounce a lot. In my ideal world, MIDI would be a single ribbon of data, and editing would automatically "heal" any splices to preserve that single ribbon when editing a part that was played in real-time into the track. However I assume that wouldn't be optimum when dragging clips in, because of what would happen if clips overlapped and there was a conflict between controllers, duplicate notes, etc.
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Tom Riggs
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Re: More unreliable MIDI editing stupidity
2016/03/25 11:31:46
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I have used the comping mode for recording in midi. Mainly because I did not turn it off after recording so audio. It can be useful for selecting the best performance just as in audio.
However when it is time to do much editing. I would flatten the comp and then copy that midi clip to a new track for editing and mute the first one.
That way I have access to the other clips if I want. Also I do not use midi editing in the prv at all.
If I were to wish for something it would be a way to turn off lanes on a track by track basis.
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Snehankur
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Re: More unreliable MIDI editing stupidity
2016/03/25 13:22:09
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Anderton
Snehankur
Can I also stretch the note endings of the notes to match to nearest bar/beat as per steps specified?
There may be a CAL script for that, but I'm not aware of any option other than adjusting manually with snap on.
Can it be a feature request? Regards Snehankur
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cparmerlee
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Re: More unreliable MIDI editing stupidity
2016/03/25 17:36:54
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dcumpian
Let us hope midi editing gets some love in 2016...
Including things that aren't technically "broken" in the most pedantic sense, but are entirely unusable in the real world, such as documented here: http://forum.cakewalk.com...fix-this-m3166007.aspx
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Anderton
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Re: More unreliable MIDI editing stupidity
2016/03/26 14:52:28
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Snehankur
Anderton
Snehankur
Can I also stretch the note endings of the notes to match to nearest bar/beat as per steps specified?
There may be a CAL script for that, but I'm not aware of any option other than adjusting manually with snap on.
Can it be a feature request?
Regards
Snehankur
Actually if you select Quantize Duration, note endings will quantize to the nearest rhythmic value. However, there's no way to specify "only quantize duration if the note lengthens." For example if a note is only a few ticks past an eighth note and you quantize duration to eighth notes, it will quantize to the note value it's closest to, not the next one.
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Snehankur
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Re: More unreliable MIDI editing stupidity
2016/03/26 15:10:09
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Anderton
Snehankur
Anderton
Snehankur
Can I also stretch the note endings of the notes to match to nearest bar/beat as per steps specified?
There may be a CAL script for that, but I'm not aware of any option other than adjusting manually with snap on.
Can it be a feature request?
Regards
Snehankur
Actually if you select Quantize Duration, note endings will quantize to the nearest rhythmic value. However, there's no way to specify "only quantize duration if the note lengthens." For example if a note is only a few ticks past an eighth note and you quantize duration to eighth notes, it will quantize to the note value it's closest to, not the next one.
It would be nice if it works like if we keep the mouse pointer near to the starting of any note that will adjusts the starting of the selected notes and when we will keep the pointer near the ending of a note then the eniding of the selected notes will be adjusted. I am asking too much !!
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ricoskyl
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Re: More unreliable MIDI editing stupidity
2016/03/26 16:01:29
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Anderton
Actually if you select Quantize Duration, note endings will quantize to the nearest rhythmic value. However, there's no way to specify "only quantize duration if the note lengthens." For example if a note is only a few ticks past an eighth note and you quantize duration to eighth notes, it will quantize to the note value it's closest to, not the next one.
Maybe that's a feature request that should come from this discussion: Introduce the idea of Q+ or Q- to quantize dialogs where the quantization strength is not 100%. Q- would move the duration or start time toward the previous beat while Q+ would move toward the following beat. In my view, this would make quantizing a lot less random than it currently seems. I know that doesn't address the OP problem, but it's another thought.
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submarin
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Re: More unreliable MIDI editing stupidity
2016/03/26 17:48:09
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when you want to quantize everytime the dialog box opens, THAT is driving me nuts..
and the fact the 50% swing is actually binary, I never understood this.
In every other DAW 0% is binary and then you push how much swing you want..
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Anderton
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Re: More unreliable MIDI editing stupidity
2016/03/26 19:13:59
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Snehankur
It would be nice if it works like if we keep the mouse pointer near to the starting of any note that will adjusts the starting of the selected notes and when we will keep the pointer near the ending of a note then the eniding of the selected notes will be adjusted.
I am asking too much !!
Williamcopper would hate you forever for suggesting yet another use of position-based selection. 
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Anderton
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Re: More unreliable MIDI editing stupidity
2016/03/26 19:16:30
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submarin
when you want to quantize every time the dialog box opens, THAT is driving me nuts..
I'm not sure I understand correctly, but if I do, Dialog box settings persist and you can save presets of your most-used quantization settings.
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submarin
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Re: More unreliable MIDI editing stupidity
2016/03/26 23:24:56
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Hi Craig,
yes true but why not implementing the quantize setting into the PRV window so when you work on a track and you want to partially quanitze only thing you have to do is select notes and hit ´Q´. In Sonar always the dialog box comes up..
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Anderton
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Re: More unreliable MIDI editing stupidity
2016/03/27 10:55:28
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That would need to be a feature request, because Q is the keyboard shortcut for calling up the Quantize Dialog box. SONAR would need to implement a separate shortcut for "Quantize without requiring confirmation." For now, if hitting Enter after hitting Q disturbs your workflow excessively, I'm pretty sure you could use a macro builder (e.g., Auto Hot Key) to have a single keystroke trigger Q + Enter.
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Snehankur
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Re: More unreliable MIDI editing stupidity
2016/03/28 01:00:02
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Anderton
Snehankur
It would be nice if it works like if we keep the mouse pointer near to the starting of any note that will adjusts the starting of the selected notes and when we will keep the pointer near the ending of a note then the eniding of the selected notes will be adjusted.
I am asking too much !!
Williamcopper would hate you forever for suggesting yet another use of position-based selection.
C I AM WILLing to OPERate with click+drag or RightClick+Drag, if positioning is Problem
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