mncnyman@msn.com
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Muddy Output on Export
Hey folks, really frustrated, hoping you can help!
On all my projects, when I export to MP3 or WAV, the resulting mix is muddy (lack of crisp high end) and the overall level is low. Before export, the mix sounds clear and robust, but exporting to a file, it sounds muddy and ugly. I have a pretty old sound card (Soundblaster Allegra?), and have heard that since HS mixes output through this card, could it be that this crappy card is the culprit?
Appreciate any help on this!!!
thanks!!!
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daveny5
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RE: Muddy Output on Export
2005/09/20 23:16:11
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Dave Computer: Intel i7, ASROCK H170M, 16GB/5TB+, Windows 10 Pro 64-bit, Sonar Platinum, TASCAM US-16x08, Cakewalk UM-3G MIDI I/F Instruments: SL-880 Keyboard controller, Korg 05R/W, Korg N1R, KORG Wavestation EX Axes: Fender Stratocaster, Line6 Variax 300, Ovation Acoustic, Takamine Nylon Acoustic, Behringer GX212 amp, Shure SM-58 mic, Rode NT1 condenser mic. Outboard: Mackie 1402-VLZ mixer, TC Helicon VoiceLive 2, Digitech Vocalist WS EX, PODXTLive, various stompboxes and stuff. Controllers: Korg nanoKONTROL, Wacom Bamboo Touchpad
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AristotleY
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RE: Muddy Output on Export
2005/09/21 14:07:12
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Huh? HS mixes "through the sound card"? I don't get that. I thought that HS does all of the "math" in software and just feeds the final mix out to the sound card -- or, if you're Exporting -- saves the same data to a file instead. Is this not the case?
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boten
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RE: Muddy Output on Export
2005/09/21 15:57:21
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You're almost correct. For audio tracks only projects, bouncing or exporting operation is done by applying the relevant algorithms for the existing digital audio , including adding up tracks, calculating audio effects results, automation, etc. (You can check this very easy by disabling the audio card, opening an audio project and then bounce to track or export and there will be no issues with that) However, if you have midi tracks with either soft or harware synths, then in order to bounce or mix it is necessary to "play" the tracks, the synths generate analog outputs, which go to the audio card A/D converter and registered into a new digital audio file. The quality of a soundcard is typically measured for both playback and recording based on A/D and D/A converters quality, so if you have a better card, the sound is better when reproduced and the digital audio recorded has less distortion and better dynamic range. So if it was the soundcard, the project would have sounded the same way during playback or after mixing.
post edited by boten - 2005/09/21 16:05:06
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sinc
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RE: Muddy Output on Export
2005/09/21 21:46:30
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the synths generate analog outputs, which go to the audio card A/D converter and registered into a new digital audio file. Where did you hear that? It sounds questionable... Softsynths aren't like analog synths... The first softsynths were simply digital simulations of analog synths, and they produced digital output. They also tended to not sound exactly like the softsynth they were simulating, since they were computer programs simulating analog electronics. Over time, people have gotten better at programming them, the hardware has gotten better (i.e., faster), and they've started sounding a lot better. People have also taken advantage of leaving the physical world, enabling creations that would be difficult or prohibitively expensive to do with analog circuitry. Since the output of a softsynth is digital, it doesn't need to use the A/D-D/A converters on your soundcard. Why would it need to? All the D/A converter does is convert audio wav data into an analog electrical signal, which can be amplified by a normal amplifier and sent to normal speakers. The input to the D/A converter MUST be digital audio - that's the only thing a D/A converter knows how to process. If the data is already digital audio, why would the softsynth need to send the digital audio through a D/A converter, only to immediately send it through an A/D converter? All that does is introduce A/D-D/A conversion noise. Think about it - the A/D and D/A converters are special types of circuits, one end is a digital circuit (like a computer) and the other end is an analog circuit (like a stereo). This implies one end of the converter must be an audio jack. Where's the audio jack for the softsynth? Just thinking out loud...
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mncnyman@msn.com
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RE: Muddy Output on Export
2005/09/22 08:14:29
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Update = the sound card is an ESS Allegra - pretty old.
From the recent posts, it sounds like if the soundcard was the culprit, then I'd hear it in the mix/individual channel playback. Since these tracks sound clean and punchy, this doesn't appear to be the cause. I'm hoping someone can offer some ideas on why exported projects sound so lousy.
Thanks!!!!!
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AristotleY
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RE: Muddy Output on Export
2005/09/22 14:27:15
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Are you exporting to a .WAV file? Are the sampling rate or bit depth changing (i.e. output file different than sound card)?
I have suspect this happening to me before, but it was never dramatic enough to pin down, and I just kind of shrugged it off. But I'd like to get to the bottom of this.
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mncnyman@msn.com
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RE: Muddy Output on Export
2005/09/24 15:54:45
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I've experimented with changing the resolution of the exported file, going to higher, lower, etc. but no real change. I've tried exporting to both WAV and MP3 and still the result is the same. I've elimated the possibility of the CD burner because I've copied the MP3 file to a MP3 player and still gotten the same muddy output!!! ARRRRGH
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AristotleY
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RE: Muddy Output on Export
2005/09/25 22:50:00
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OK, let's try some more experimentation.
You are using the File>Export>Audio... menu option I assume. Try selecting only one track, and "unchecking" all of the things in that dialog box that HS could apply to the audio (Envelopes, Effects, etc.) Get rid of as many things as you -- compare that output to the solo track with no effects.
I am hoping that, at least in theory, if you listen to a mix -- and compare that experience with Exporting to a .WAV file and then playing the .WAV file, they would be the same.
Another thing to test would be to Export to a .WAV file, and then create a new project and Import that .WAV file as the audio for a new Audio track. With that as the only track, play it! The ensures that EVERTHING is the same (output software driving the Allegra board included) between listening to the mix and listening to the exported WAV.
Write back soon.
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mncnyman@msn.com
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RE: Muddy Output on Export
2005/10/04 19:44:21
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Will check and get back to you! Thanks for the ideas!!
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TNW1
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RE: Muddy Output on Export
2005/10/09 00:47:45
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I'd like to know if you have had any success because I have the same problem, stupid issue.
I recorded audio tracks from my Roland XP-80, bass & singing vocals. Sounds great in cake
walk, play is great. Burn to CD & it get's crappy. i'm using an Audiofile soundcard only 2yrs. old
and the card ain't cheap.
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mncnyman@msn.com
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RE: Muddy Output on Export
2005/12/07 22:00:26
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Update - got a new PC (3.2Ghz processor, 1Gb memory,) and a M-Audio 2496 sound card. Am able to record in 24bit, 96khz but have two problems:
1.) the Export function won't let me got to MP3 or WAV with this high of a resolution, says I need to go to 16bit..
2.) I can export via Real Audio format, in 24bit, but the playback is still of a lower signal level than the original output I hear from the individual playback tracks...But it is better than MP3..
3.) When I downshift to 16bit and export to MP3 or WAV, I still have the same issue with really low level end resulting audio !!! Is this just the nature of the two file formats? With all the compression that gets laid on?
WHAT ARE PEOPLE DOING WITH 24 BIT/96 KHZ IN HS2004? ALL INPUTS WELCOME!
Appreciate any additional help!!!
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bill durham
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RE: Muddy Output on Export
2005/12/07 22:51:47
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ORIGINAL: mncnyman@msn.com
Update - got a new PC (3.2Ghz processor, 1Gb memory,) and a M-Audio 2496 sound card. Am able to record in 24bit, 96khz but have two problems:
1.) the Export function won't let me got to MP3 or WAV with this high of a resolution, says I need to go to 16bit..
The reason for this is 16bit 44khz is the standard for CD Audio...other bit rates won't play on a standard cd player.
2.) I can export via Real Audio format, in 24bit, but the playback is still of a lower signal level than the original output I hear from the individual playback tracks...But it is better than MP3..
3.) When I downshift to 16bit and export to MP3 or WAV, I still have the same issue with really low level end resulting audio !!! Is this just the nature of the two file formats? With all the compression that gets laid on?
If you are not using any form of audio compression..not to be confused with digital data compression....you will not be able to create a competitively loud enough track. I'm assuming that you are creating rock/pop type music...classical is another thing.
WHAT ARE PEOPLE DOING WITH 24 BIT/96 KHZ IN HS2004? ALL INPUTS WELCOME!
I"ll stick my neck out and say that there are probably few folks doing 24/96 than are on a football team. The reason is you just can't hear the diff and the track wave files are huge. I'm sure there are folks that will argue with me on it, but in the big scheme of things the trade off in sound quality isn't worth the hassle, when you have to down convert to 16/44 in the end anyway.
Back to your original problem...I don't have a clue! One thing you can do is take a tune that you can play with...a group of tracks and create a two track mix by bouncing all the tracks. After you bounce the tracks, export the 2 track mix. Then delete the track mix from that project. Next, import that 2 track mix back into the project, then flip the phase of that 2 track mix. Hit play! If you hear anything, the exported file has been changed some how. If you don't hear anything, then its not Cake that is altering your audio.
good luck
BD
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ArtyBoy
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RE: Muddy Output on Export
2005/12/08 20:51:09
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I'm having a similar problem, and I'm wondering if some of it isn't perception. I have some mixes I've done that I've been thrilled with. Then I do a mix that I think is also great, export and burn to CD, and find it sounds awful. However, I wonder if that isn't because when I was listening to it in Cakewalk, through headphones as I tweaked for hours, I became immersed and didn't have anything to compare it to. When I get it next to another track I can hear it for what it is.
My first four or five mixes I've really liked, then the last couple have been major pains to remove the mud. Maybe leave it and say you were going for "that old, tube analog warmth."
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mncnyman@msn.com
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RE: Muddy Output on Export
2005/12/08 23:40:38
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Bill - thanks for your input... I'll downshift to 16 or 24/44.1 since the file sizes are huge and I"m not hearing a difference.
And I'll also try the Bounce - export - delete - import route and see if there's any difference.
Someone in the sound biz I spoke with suggested maybe bouncing the tracks to a stereo pair, then applying a little compression and take the overall level up... but I started tweaking the compressor settings for the bounced tracks and got more distortion than cleaner compression. I'm making it too complicated, I'm sure, but it sounds like others are having similar problems - with the File ->Export function taking 30 - 40Mb files and getting it down to 2 - 3 Mb, I got to assume a lot of dynamic range is lost there. Is this your view?
What I'm down to now is using the Real Audio output format for out put since it seems to have the best net overal signal quality over MP3 and WMA...
But really hoping someone can shed more light on this....
thanks!!!
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sinc
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RE: Muddy Output on Export
2005/12/09 08:22:09
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I'm making it too complicated, I'm sure, but it sounds like others are having similar problems - with the File ->Export function taking 30 - 40Mb files and getting it down to 2 - 3 Mb, I got to assume a lot of dynamic range is lost there. Is this your view? Couldn't quite parse this... What exactly are you talking about? If you're comparing your overall project size with the size of the output, then that's apples and oranges. A 5-minute wav at a given sample rate/bit depth is always the same size (although a stereo wav is twice the size of a mono wav). So, if you have five 3-minute stereo wavs in your project, the project will be roughly 5x bigger than the 3-minute wav you get as mixdown. If adding compression is causing distortion, then something is wrong. But unfortunately, there are many possible causes, and in fact, it is very likely that your problems do not have one single cause, but are a combination of issues. If you could post some actual sound clips we might be able to give more useful information. But even then, we'll probably still be just grasping at straws. Are you using a master bus?
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BassPlayer
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RE: Muddy Output on Export
2005/12/09 09:33:04
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I use the internal mp3 encoder for quick and dirty things for this reason. The output is not....crisp. In talking to my friend at protools he thought there might be a dithering issue going on. Not sure exactly how that applys but he told me to export as wav and try lame. And the sound is much better using the same settings. If you get lame it comes with the razor front end and there is also winlame which is a front end also.
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bill durham
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RE: Muddy Output on Export
2005/12/09 17:39:17
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ORIGINAL: mncnyman@msn.com
Someone in the sound biz I spoke with suggested maybe bouncing the tracks to a stereo pair, then applying a little compression and take the overall level up... but I started tweaking the compressor settings for the bounced tracks and got more distortion than cleaner compression. I'm making it too complicated, I'm sure, but it sounds like others are having similar problems - with the File ->Export function taking 30 - 40Mb files and getting it down to 2 - 3 Mb, I got to assume a lot of dynamic range is lost there. Is this your view?
mnc,
I normally add compression to the two track mix...I like the Waves C4 multiband compressor for this app as it allows you to compress different freq. bands differently. Unless you are being VERY aggressive with the compressor, you shouldn't be getting distortion. If you have the Cake FX package or a single band compressor, I'd set the compression ratio to 4:1, release time long...300ms, attack time 30ms or so...and adjust the threshold so that you get about 6 dB of gain reduction. Put this on the stereo track itself. Then, in the Master effects bin, put another compressor in there and set it up as a hard limiter. Set the compression ratio to 10:1, attack time faster 10ms, Releast time 100ms, use your ears for the threshold as this will distort. You should be able to raise your level a good bit this way, but be careful...depending on the type of music you are creating, squashing the crap out of it might not be the best thing to do.
What I'm down to now is using the Real Audio output format for out put since it seems to have the best net overal signal quality over MP3 and WMA...
I really don't understand why you are exporting as anything other than a wave file. The reason for this is as a wave file, there is no data reduction. You can then convert to a loss type format, aka mp3 or WMA, but you should export as as a wave always. It is always possible to import your exported two track stereo wave file into a new project and add more effects or compression to make the file louder. If you import an mp3 or wma file, it is already reduced by some percentage and most likely you will not end up with as good a sounding final product as you would have if you exported originally as a wave file.
Let us know what plugs you have, we might can provide more help then
BD
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daveny5
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RE: Muddy Output on Export
2005/12/09 23:10:40
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I answered your question back in September. Get a better soundcard if you want better sound.
Dave Computer: Intel i7, ASROCK H170M, 16GB/5TB+, Windows 10 Pro 64-bit, Sonar Platinum, TASCAM US-16x08, Cakewalk UM-3G MIDI I/F Instruments: SL-880 Keyboard controller, Korg 05R/W, Korg N1R, KORG Wavestation EX Axes: Fender Stratocaster, Line6 Variax 300, Ovation Acoustic, Takamine Nylon Acoustic, Behringer GX212 amp, Shure SM-58 mic, Rode NT1 condenser mic. Outboard: Mackie 1402-VLZ mixer, TC Helicon VoiceLive 2, Digitech Vocalist WS EX, PODXTLive, various stompboxes and stuff. Controllers: Korg nanoKONTROL, Wacom Bamboo Touchpad
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mncnyman@msn.com
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RE: Muddy Output on Export
2005/12/10 08:28:28
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Thanks for all the input, here's some responses:
* sinc - thanks - I'll get some clips posted to give you an idea of the distortion I"m getting, but I'm going to try some of BD's settings first to see if this changes
* Bassplayer - you helped confirm my suspicions on the MP3 export quality... appreciate it...not familiar with lame - could you fill me in?
* BD - will try your compression settings (I'm using Cake's FX compressor), good ideas...
* Dave - I switched to an Audiophile 2496 card, several others have recommended it, I assume it's sufficient for home/Cake apps....any recommendations on getting the most out of it?
MNC
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daveny5
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RE: Muddy Output on Export
2005/12/10 10:21:28
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* Dave - I switched to an Audiophile 2496 card, several others have recommended it, I assume it's sufficient for home/Cake apps....any recommendations on getting the most out of it? Good choice. Run it in ASIO driver mode to get the lowest latency (around 5.8ms).
Dave Computer: Intel i7, ASROCK H170M, 16GB/5TB+, Windows 10 Pro 64-bit, Sonar Platinum, TASCAM US-16x08, Cakewalk UM-3G MIDI I/F Instruments: SL-880 Keyboard controller, Korg 05R/W, Korg N1R, KORG Wavestation EX Axes: Fender Stratocaster, Line6 Variax 300, Ovation Acoustic, Takamine Nylon Acoustic, Behringer GX212 amp, Shure SM-58 mic, Rode NT1 condenser mic. Outboard: Mackie 1402-VLZ mixer, TC Helicon VoiceLive 2, Digitech Vocalist WS EX, PODXTLive, various stompboxes and stuff. Controllers: Korg nanoKONTROL, Wacom Bamboo Touchpad
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