alexoosthoek
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Muddy live sound
The last concerts I've been to all seem to have a lot of low end mud. As much as I like lows I want to be able to hear bass, gtr and kick separate.
Is this something new or have I missed something (happened before), or just bad FOH mixing?
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Jeff Evans
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Re:Muddy live sound
2012/09/24 20:03:53
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Bad FOH mixing or more importantly the tuning of the PA into the room. Most live sound engineers and I say MOST are useless idiots and they have WAY too much bottom end. Most of them have no idea about how a balanced bottom end should sound. Many are deaf as a result of hearing too much bottom end hence they are pushing it harder all the time because they are not hearing it the way we are. If the bottom end is excessive then the rest of the spectrum is not heard very well then. By taking away most and I mean most of the bottom end crap that many live engineers think is good, the mids and the highs then sound great and louder. All this by taking something away, a concept many live engineers have no concept about. The power amps are all have a much easier time now as well because they don't have to do anywhere near as much work and the whole system will sound better. Who are these people and how do they find themselves in important positions of doing important mixes but they are incompetent at just that. Many have no skills or talent or listening experience otherwise they would know what a really well balanced sound is like. Many push overall FOH levels way too high as well not realising that the magic excitement level is somewhere below where they are operating most of the time. I use Steely Dan's 'Everything Must Go' to set up and tune a live PA into the room. The bottom end on that CD is perfect, end of story. As soon as I play it on a big live system, 99 times out of 100 the bottom end is WAY too loud. After fixing it the PA usually and most often sounds excellent. Most FOH EQ settings are like a dogs hind leg as well and usually after setting that all flat the PA often sounds great which means it was set and installed properly. I know everything I am saying here is true because when a serious live act comes out to Australia eg Return to Forever or something of this calibre the mix I hear is exactly I described. Perfect with the perfect amount of bottom end. No mud just pure clarity right across the spectrum. I think what has changed today is that PA's can produce so much bottom end and so easily at very high SPL levels. So the live engineers think they have to use it and all of it too but in fact the opposite is true. Just go for a very natural sounding bottom end and the PA will have a very easy time of it as a result.
post edited by Jeff Evans - 2012/09/24 20:51:12
Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
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Jonbouy
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Re:Muddy live sound
2012/09/24 20:24:11
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I don't think it's a new thing. This lot always sounded muddy. 
"We can't do anything to change the world until capitalism crumbles. In the meantime we should all go shopping to console ourselves" - Banksy
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alexoosthoek
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Re:Muddy live sound
2012/09/24 20:33:47
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I wonder where they were teached that stuff anyway?!
I learned the hard way, just a little experience in my musical places. And after that just listen and adjust.
Did sound last Saturday in a rather "concrete" venue and got some nice reviews.
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bapu
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Re:Muddy live sound
2012/09/24 20:39:37
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Jonbouy
I don't think it's a new thing. This lot always sounded muddy.
Love the socks on this guy ------^^^^^^ Must be the dulcimer player
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Jeff Evans
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Re:Muddy live sound
2012/09/24 21:07:22
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Live sound is part of the sound engineering course I teach but we don't let the students any where near that until they have done a fair bit of studio work sitting in front of very expensive monitors and getting a real appreciation of what a well balanced sound is like. I think live engineers that have come from some sort of studio background are often better because of this fact alone. We have a theatre with a fairly decent PA with subs etc and we spend quite a bit of time practising tuning the PA to the room. I like to take the students into the studio as well to become very familiar with the reference CD and then into the live room for a direct comparison. And if you are in a difficult room like Alex was recently which part of the spectrum do you think controlling will give a better result, yes you guessed it the bottom end. And keep the volume down too, that helps a lot. Sound checks should NOT be at full volume either. Too much sound (in the sound check) swamps onto the stage making it harder for the musicians to hear themselves and they start turning themselves UP which is sort of not what we want.
post edited by Jeff Evans - 2012/09/24 21:24:19
Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
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alexoosthoek
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Re:Muddy live sound
2012/09/24 21:08:10
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Jeff Evans
Bad FOH mixing or more importantly the tuning of the PA into the room. Most live sound engineers and I say MOST are useless idiots and they have WAY too much bottom end. Most of them have no idea about how a balanced bottom end should sound. Many are deaf as a result of hearing too much bottom end hence they are pushing it harder all the time because they are not hearing it the way we are.
If the bottom end is excessive then the rest of the spectrum is not heard very well then. By taking away most and I mean most of the bottom end crap that many live engineers think is good, the mids and the highs then sound great and louder. All this by taking something away, a concept many live engineers have no concept about. The power amps are all have a much easier time now as well because they don't have to do anywhere near as much work and the whole system will sound better.
Who are these people and how do they find themselves in important positions of doing important mixes but they are incompetent at just that. Many have no skills or talent or listening experience otherwise they would know what a really well balanced sound is like.
Many push overall FOH levels way too high as well not realising that the magic excitement level is somewhere below where they are operating most of the time.
I use Steely Dan's 'Everything Must Go' to set up and tune a live PA into the room. The bottom end on that CD is perfect, end of story. As soon as I play it on a big live system, 99 times out of 100 the bottom end is WAY too loud. After fixing it the PA usually and most often sounds excellent. Most FOH EQ settings are like a dogs hind leg as well and usually after setting that all flat the PA often sounds great which means it was set and installed properly.
I know everything I am saying here is true because when a serious live act comes out to Australia eg Return to Forever or something of this calibre the mix I hear is exactly I described. Perfect with the perfect amount of bottom end. No mud just pure clarity right across the spectrum.
I think what has changed today is that PA's can produce so much bottom end and so easily at very high SPL levels. So the live engineers think they have to use it and all of it too but in fact the opposite is true. Just go for a very natural sounding bottom end and the PA will have a very easy time of it as a result.
First brake: Marillions album Holydays in eden, though the(my) PA, sounded great. Second brake: music from their sound system, low and high that was it. Oh and a lot of flashing lights  Not sure why there are ppl teaching that things like that.
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alexoosthoek
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Re:Muddy live sound
2012/09/24 21:11:38
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Jonbouy
I don't think it's a new thing. This lot always sounded muddy.
Crazy, noisy, muddy bugger :)
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Guitarhacker
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Re:Muddy live sound
2012/09/25 09:01:24
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No... it's not you Alex... The last couple of live shows I attended have had horrible sound. I have not been to many live shows because of it in recent years. Last big show was a few years back at a Kenny Chesney show.... big outdoor covered arena..... built for concerts and sound. Nice sized PA...lots of speakers and all the appearances of it being a good show. The pre-concert music being piped through the PA sounded really good..... but it was a much lower level of course. The opening acts (2) came on and played and I noticed a lack of any serious attempt at bottom end. But I chalked that up to what I have seen and heard first hand as the opening act on a few live shows myself.... the headliner had the low end cut way down so it would make them sound better when they came on. (Lack of confidence in their stage act) So Chesney hits the stage and still no bottom end.... but I'm thinking.... Oh I know what they're doing... the bass is gonna kick in on the chorus and ...... wait for it.... wait for it.... here comes the chorus........ yeeeeee..... No? what the funk? Still no bass..... then a closer look at the big screens and the stage, yeah, they have a bass player and yeah, he looks like he's playing...... and the show went on the entire time like that. Oh it was loud.... and while we were back on the grass seating area, it was so cranked that it was about impossible to understand the words if you didn't already know the lyrics to the song. A very disappointing show. About the only part of the show that was reasonable was when Kenny grabbed an acoustic guitar for a song or two..... then, and only then did it even come close to being a decent FOH mix. On the other hand.... some of the best sounding concerts I have ever attended have been when the band had the FOH mix at a reasonable level and the PA system was well balanced and not going for any volume records. I think maybe the FOH guys think louder is better and when faced with an outdoor stage think it really has to be loud to sound good. Personal story: Our band was supplying the PA to an outdoor event. Our PA was quite substantial in size and power to handle the largest venue's we played. Our FOH guy was trying to "fill" the outdoor space and things were running distorted and with little balance and bottom end. I looked over his shoulder and everything was gagged wide open on the board. During a break, we spoke and I simply asked him to pull the levels down... go for a clean sound.... not try to fill God's outdoor arena since they really don't need to hear it over in the next county. The rest of the show sounded really nice. It actually sounded like a nice stereo system playing in that field. The hardest part was trying to convince the bands on the lineup to trust us and turn the stage volume down. Those that did sounded good.
post edited by Guitarhacker - 2012/09/25 09:03:54
My website & music: www.herbhartley.com MC4/5/6/X1e.c, on a Custom DAW Focusrite Firewire Saffire Interface BMI/NSAI "Just as the blade chooses the warrior, so too, the song chooses the writer "
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alexoosthoek
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Re:Muddy live sound
2012/09/25 10:33:27
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Guitarhacker
............. they really don't need to hear it over in the next county. 
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trimph1
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Re:Muddy live sound
2012/09/25 10:40:38
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mmmm...that might explain why some of the outdoor concerts in Harris Park this summer were a bit on the loud side down at the southend of London ON then. Too much FOH?
Hawk Rocks The Park tends to get a lot of issues over the noise level...especially when one is at an apartment some miles from the site...
The space you have will always be exceeded in direct proportion to the amount of stuff you have...Thornton's Postulate. Bushpianos
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sharke
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Re:Muddy live sound
2012/09/25 10:55:19
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90% of live music is too loud, period. I don't think I went to a single gig in my youth in which I didn't come out with hearing loss and tinnitus, some of which has remained with me ever since. For me the volume ruins the experience. I hate to wear ear plugs that lower the volume but ruin the tone. The general feeling among the plebs (there I've said it) is that "the louder the better" and loudness = good times. So you go in a bar these days and you cannot have a conversation without shouting, and even then it's futile, because the bar manager believes that if they pump up the volume to distortion levels, everyone will automatically feel like they're having a good time.
Years ago I went to see a Zappa tribute band who were obviously very talented. But they were so excessively loud I walked out after 20 minutes. The sound was distorting and painful. Yet there was the guy behind the mixing desk, beer in hand, nodding his head in rhythm. Perhaps he was half deaf.
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Danny Danzi
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Re:Muddy live sound
2012/09/25 11:42:17
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Alex, it's a tough call really. A major part of it (in my opinion) has to do with what Jeff mentioned as well as what sharke's belief about the "deaf" thing. The room is soo important in this for sure. Another thing to keep in mind....when they soundcheck, the place is empty. Add some people in it and the eq's you were happy with 4-6 hours earlier no longer hold true. Especially if the columns/speakers are not in-air and the soudman may have been partying a little before the show. Ever mix in a club with people standing in front of your speaker rig? That totally changes the listening experience for others as well...and what do you do, jack up the highs because people are absorbing the sound that are up front and kill them with highs, or leave the mud? Depends on the room and the situation, ya know? That's another thing too..where you are seated/standing. Some rooms have a very focused sound and have sweet spots where you just may not be. Agreed also on things being WAY too loud. That said, I sincerely believe things are lower today than in the 80's and earlier. And those soundmen knew how to deal with loud music. I remember seeing Van Halen for the 1984 tour...they were so loud, there's a V and an H embedded into my forehead. LOL! But they sounded great even though it was really loud. Rush on the Signals tour was so loud, I couldn't feel myself breathing. My ears rang for 3 days after. But again...excruciatingly loud, but a well mixed loud. Even Terrible Ted Nugent was unGodly loud...but it sounded great. Those dudes just knew how to deal with it better than today's soundmen in my opinion. I believe some of the soundmen are trying to use studio techniques on their live mix by using loads of limiters...and they are failing miserably. Just about every show I've either played at or have been to, the soundmen have their lappy's and plugs running. The first thing I do when I'm playing in that situation...is I make them kill that stuff. It just doesn't sound right and turns everything into loud, mud. Also, lots of soundmen just don't have a clue about how to mix in certain rooms. As you know, it's not easy in some of them. The worst is when all you hear is kick and bass and the guitars sound like little bee's buzzing around because they are eq'd horribly and the soundman doesn't have them up loud enough. Which brings me to the next possibility.... The band being too loud. The worst offender in poor sound is a band that is so loud, you either have no control over them or you just totally kill them out of the board. The lower you are on stage, the more control you give your soundman as well as the lack of raw, uncompressed stage volume hitting people in the face. Sure, most rock bands need a little stage push volume wise...but man, some of the stuff I've heard is so insane, it can make a great band sound amateur. It's funny man...when I show up to play my big shows, I'll usually bring 4 Marshall cabs. The soundman takes one look at me and says "oh brother, here we go...another one of THEM." Then I fire up and play and the dude will say throught the talkback mic "dude, are you kidding me? I never thought I'd ask a guitar player with 4 Marshall cabs this...but can you please turn up?" LOL!!! I usually respond "do I have to?" to where he says "you can't be serious...are you ill? A guitar player that doesn't want to turn up...ok, now I've seen it all." Hahahaha! I just hate raw stage volume, Especially me being the singer in my original band. I'm a singer, not a screamer. If I scream it's for effect purposes, not because I can't hear myself over the band. So I would say this is probably the #1 offender...bands are just way too loud to where the soundman just has no control over them. If you do that in a club around here, they'll throw wet napkins at you. If you keep doing it, they'll get some powdered hand soap, use a little water and make it into a ball, wrap it in the napkin, wet it a little and whack you with it. You definitely turn down after that...or dude will kill the power. LOL! :) -Danny
post edited by Danny Danzi - 2012/09/25 11:45:12
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alexoosthoek
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Re:Muddy live sound
2012/09/26 15:49:21
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Danny Danzi
Alex, it's a tough call really. A major part of it (in my opinion) has to do with what Jeff mentioned as well as what sharke's belief about the "deaf" thing. The room is soo important in this for sure. Another thing to keep in mind....when they soundcheck, the place is empty. Add some people in it and the eq's you were happy with 4-6 hours earlier no longer hold true. Especially if the columns/speakers are not in-air and the soudman may have been partying a little before the show.
Ever mix in a club with people standing in front of your speaker rig? That totally changes the listening experience for others as well...and what do you do, jack up the highs because people are absorbing the sound that are up front and kill them with highs, or leave the mud? Depends on the room and the situation, ya know? That's another thing too..where you are seated/standing. Some rooms have a very focused sound and have sweet spots where you just may not be.
Agreed also on things being WAY too loud. That said, I sincerely believe things are lower today than in the 80's and earlier. And those soundmen knew how to deal with loud music. I remember seeing Van Halen for the 1984 tour...they were so loud, there's a V and an H embedded into my forehead. LOL! But they sounded great even though it was really loud. Rush on the Signals tour was so loud, I couldn't feel myself breathing. My ears rang for 3 days after. But again...excruciatingly loud, but a well mixed loud. Even Terrible Ted Nugent was unGodly loud...but it sounded great. Those dudes just knew how to deal with it better than today's soundmen in my opinion. I believe some of the soundmen are trying to use studio techniques on their live mix by using loads of limiters...and they are failing miserably.
Just about every show I've either played at or have been to, the soundmen have their lappy's and plugs running. The first thing I do when I'm playing in that situation...is I make them kill that stuff. It just doesn't sound right and turns everything into loud, mud.
Also, lots of soundmen just don't have a clue about how to mix in certain rooms. As you know, it's not easy in some of them. The worst is when all you hear is kick and bass and the guitars sound like little bee's buzzing around because they are eq'd horribly and the soundman doesn't have them up loud enough. Which brings me to the next possibility....
The band being too loud. The worst offender in poor sound is a band that is so loud, you either have no control over them or you just totally kill them out of the board. The lower you are on stage, the more control you give your soundman as well as the lack of raw, uncompressed stage volume hitting people in the face. Sure, most rock bands need a little stage push volume wise...but man, some of the stuff I've heard is so insane, it can make a great band sound amateur.
It's funny man...when I show up to play my big shows, I'll usually bring 4 Marshall cabs. The soundman takes one look at me and says "oh brother, here we go...another one of THEM." Then I fire up and play and the dude will say throught the talkback mic "dude, are you kidding me? I never thought I'd ask a guitar player with 4 Marshall cabs this...but can you please turn up?" LOL!!! I usually respond "do I have to?" to where he says "you can't be serious...are you ill? A guitar player that doesn't want to turn up...ok, now I've seen it all." Hahahaha! I just hate raw stage volume, Especially me being the singer in my original band. I'm a singer, not a screamer. If I scream it's for effect purposes, not because I can't hear myself over the band. So I would say this is probably the #1 offender...bands are just way too loud to where the soundman just has no control over them.
If you do that in a club around here, they'll throw wet napkins at you. If you keep doing it, they'll get some powdered hand soap, use a little water and make it into a ball, wrap it in the napkin, wet it a little and whack you with it. You definitely turn down after that...or dude will kill the power. LOL! :)
-Danny
Yes, I did that  But I'm talking about array's here, so no need for mud?
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Crg
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Re:Muddy live sound
2012/09/26 19:31:37
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They don't take enough time any more to put together a set system and crew. From FOH to the speaker arrays it's got to be a tuned system. And most venues don't properly up keep their house speaker arrays in some of the slightly smaller venues which don't allow a full set up. And to top it all off, low end mud has become popular in modern music. I went to a Pink Floyd-The Wall show recently, all recorded, that was butchered by the sound system. Bad speakers, old cables, no way to correct without new equipment. I experienced the same thing at the Aspen/Snowmass Jazz Fest. One side was so bad I wanted to put an arrow in it. After 6 or 7 loud dates, a system is likely to show some wear. A lot of the mud is upkeep.
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sharke
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Re:Muddy live sound
2012/09/26 22:40:18
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Part of the problem is that there is no real financial incentive for venues to perfect their sound. Are they going to attract more people to the gig by doing so? Probably not. Most people just want to see their favorite band in the flesh, and they want to be blasted by a wall of sound to feel like they're getting their money's worth. As long as they can pick out the hooks and sing along, they're happy.
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Guitarhacker
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Re:Muddy live sound
2012/09/27 09:34:11
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Danny Danzi
The band being too loud. The worst offender in poor sound is a band that is so loud, you either have no control over them or you just totally kill them out of the board. The lower you are on stage, the more control you give your soundman as well as the lack of raw, uncompressed stage volume hitting people in the face. Sure, most rock bands need a little stage push volume wise...but man, some of the stuff I've heard is so insane, it can make a great band sound amateur.
-Danny BINGO! that's exactly what I am talking about. At the event I mentioned.... several of the bands had some serious stage gear. I instructed our sound man to kill EVERYTHING except the lead singer vocal mike..... with over 3000w dedicated just to the vocalist.... he was still buried in the sound coming off the stage. That band's sound man was acting kinda pi$$ed but what else could we do? We showed him that we had the vocal mic alone in the mix and the stage volume was still louder than the vocals.... he shook his head and yelled over the music level back at the board.... "YEAH, THEY DO LIKE TO PLAY LOUD!" And I had seen this band previously in a club.... their personal PA was half the size of ours in physical size and wattage. they were so loud, that the guitarist on one side of the stage was playing the chorus to the song while everyone else was in a verse.... including the singer..... and he didn't know it.
My website & music: www.herbhartley.com MC4/5/6/X1e.c, on a Custom DAW Focusrite Firewire Saffire Interface BMI/NSAI "Just as the blade chooses the warrior, so too, the song chooses the writer "
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