phil5633
Max Output Level: -87 dBFS
- Total Posts : 154
- Joined: 2005/08/13 17:04:29
- Status: offline
BillP - SONAR Platinum, MOTU 828mkII, Focusrite 18i8, Akai MPK49, Windows 10 x64, Core i7-6850K 3.60GHz, 32GB DDR4, ASUS X99-DELUXE--II MB, AMD R7 250 GPU, Behringer ADA8000, dbx 386, (2) Aphex 207, (2) ART TPS II, Presouns E5/E8, Avantone MixCubes, Presonus Monitor Station v2
|
promidi
Max Output Level: -66 dBFS
- Total Posts : 1220
- Joined: 2014/11/21 18:46:39
- Location: South Australia
- Status: offline
Re: Multidimensional Polyphonic Expression (MPE)
2017/07/05 23:54:39
(permalink)
Looks very similar to the functionality that can be provided with polyphonic aftertouch. For instance, Z3ta+2 can receive and respond to polyphonic aftertouch - that is, an Z3ta+2 patch can be programmed so that one note of a multi note chord can be altered. You just have to configure it in the Matrix settings.
What I have done it written a cal script that converts selected Channel Aftertouch events to Key Aftertouch events. Prior to running the script, You include one note with the selection of Channel Aftertouch events. Then the correct Key aftertouch events get generated.
To date, Sonar does not have the ability to edit Key aftertouch events using the PRV. You have to use the event editor to edit the events one by one - a little tedious at best.
A bring this up as a way of saying, I believe sonar would have to support PRV editing of Key aftertouch events before attempting to support Multidimensional Polyphonic Expression. The code might even be very similar.
Windows 10 64bit fully patched, 16 gig ram . PCR-800 Controller. (Working in Win 10 1809 64bit)CPU: i5 4670. Video: Nvidia GTX560ti (latest drivers). Audio IF: Focusrite 2i2 2nd Gen
Internet always on.
Software: Cakewalk by Bandlab (2018.09 B29)
ASIO mode. 24bit 48khz 256 samples Rapture Pro, AAS GS2, VS-3, EP-4, VA-2, Chromophone 2, Z3TA+ 2, Addictive drums 2, Addictive Keys, Mpowersynth (latest), Iris 2, GPO5, Sampletank 3,
|
HoosierGuy
Max Output Level: -90 dBFS
- Total Posts : 2
- Joined: 2015/08/13 19:24:06
- Status: offline
Re: Multidimensional Polyphonic Expression (MPE)
2017/07/06 00:17:47
(permalink)
It's a real shame that Sonar doesn't support MPE. There are a few other DAWs that do, such as Cubase, Bitwig, Reaper, Logic Pro X, and GarageBand. I am more than ready to wade into MPE, but would need to purchase another DAW.
I am really interested in the Roli line, but their products don't yet support Windows.
|
tlw
Max Output Level: -49.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 2567
- Joined: 2008/10/11 22:06:32
- Location: West Midlands, UK
- Status: offline
Re: Multidimensional Polyphonic Expression (MPE)
2017/07/06 01:01:08
(permalink)
That page rather over-enthuses and fails to explain as well in my opinion. For a start, it's wrong about the restrictions it claims "conventional MIDI" has, e.g. the statement that the only things a "conventional" keyboard can do is note on/off, modwheel, pitchwheel. Aftertouch and continuous controllers (CCs) have perhaps passed the author by. There also seems to be some confusion between MIDI channels and CCs. A single-port controller using a channel per note would be unable to send more than 16 notes for a start.
Historically the problem with polyphonic aftertouch has been providing an affordable (or liftable) controller and creating synths or DAWs that don't get overwhelmed by the huge flood of data such a system is capable of generating. Modern technology seems to be solving some of those issues.
If you want to experiment without spending lots of money, try the McMillen QuNexus. As far as I know it works with any MIDI-capable anything and can allow multiple CC messages from every pad, different channels per pad (if you really want that - there are only 16 after all) and lots more. I've got one and find it useful sometimes for controlling mono-synths. Polysynths tend to end up as a mess, as can mono ones unless care is taken because it's very easy to trigger CC messages to do with e.g. pitch bend.
And playing the chords of F#Min and EbMaj in particular can be tricky because of the layout. The feel is also quite unlike a conventional keyboard due to the lack of key travel. But I'm really a guitarist, not a pianist, so a playing surface that doesn't have "key travel" or weighting and ontrols pitch and vibrato as I slide a finger around on it is already familiar territory.
Sonar Platinum 64bit, Windows 8.1 Pro 64bit, I7 3770K Ivybridge, 16GB Ram, Gigabyte Z77-D3H m/board, ATI 7750 graphics+ 1GB RAM, 2xIntel 520 series 220GB SSDs, 1 TB Samsung F3 + 1 TB WD HDDs, Seasonic fanless 460W psu, RME Fireface UFX, Focusrite Octopre. Assorted real synths, guitars, mandolins, diatonic accordions, percussion, fx and other stuff.
|
Anderton
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 14070
- Joined: 2003/11/06 14:02:03
- Status: offline
Re: Multidimensional Polyphonic Expression (MPE)
2017/07/06 03:53:11
(permalink)
☄ Helpfulby dcumpian 2017/07/06 12:55:45
HoosierGuy
It's a real shame that Sonar doesn't support MPE. There are a few other DAWs that do, such as Cubase, Bitwig, Reaper, Logic Pro X, and GarageBand. I am more than ready to wade into MPE, but would need to purchase another DAW. No, you don't need to purchase another DAW. SONAR can record multiple MIDI channels in one track, which is really all you need (I do it all the time with the Jamstik and YouRock guitar). I'm testing both the Linnstrument and ROLI with SONAR; so far so good. The biggest barrier isn't DAWs, but instruments that can respond correctly and naturally to the inputs they receive from these instruments. As to the Reverb.com article...seriously? They had to change the title from "the MIDI Killer" when they realized that...uh...MPE is MIDI. Ooops. Reverb.com is a first-class organization, but they sure didn't get it right this time. Also note that MPE hasn't been ratified yet by the MMA. That's around the corner, but it's not quite there yet. We live in an age of clickbait headlines...
|
SF_Green
Max Output Level: -62 dBFS
- Total Posts : 1403
- Joined: 2005/09/13 20:37:55
- Location: San Francisco
- Status: offline
Re: Multidimensional Polyphonic Expression (MPE)
2017/07/06 07:00:35
(permalink)
Anderton
We live in an age of clickbait headlines...
Word!
AMD FX-8370, Gigabyte 990FXA-UD3, Win7x64 SP1, 16Gb CorsairDDR3-1600, GeForce GTX 950 (390.65), SSD 525Gb (OS), SATA 3 & 1.5Tb, MOTU microlite, RME FireFace 800 (D 3.124, fw 2.77), UAD-2Q, Adam A7X, A-800 PRO, CC121 Cubase Pro 10.0.5, SonarPt- 2017.10 (x64), Reason10.2, Live 10.0.5 Suite, Wavelab Elements 9.5.40, Komplete10Ult, POD Farm2.5, Omnisphere2.5, BFD3, Alesis QS7.1, Arturia BeatStep Pro, POD HD500, Alesis ControlPad, ARP Omni, many things with strings. GrSltz My Studio
|
interpolated
Max Output Level: -74 dBFS
- Total Posts : 830
- Joined: 2015/03/26 17:34:58
- Status: offline
Re: Multidimensional Polyphonic Expression (MPE)
2017/07/06 07:27:11
(permalink)
I know that East West PLAY 5 supports this.....something to do with multiple MIDI triggers. So from that point of view you could automate every instruments timbre, expression and modulation. However that makes no sense because of the different microphone proximity and dynamics which are ever so slightly different anyway.
|
tlw
Max Output Level: -49.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 2567
- Joined: 2008/10/11 22:06:32
- Location: West Midlands, UK
- Status: offline
Re: Multidimensional Polyphonic Expression (MPE)
2017/07/06 09:40:55
(permalink)
☄ Helpfulby John 2017/07/30 18:48:20
Anderton
The biggest barrier isn't DAWs, but instruments that can respond correctly and naturally to the inputs they receive from these instruments.
Until fairly recently one big barrier wasn't DAWs but the processing power of the typical PC or Mac they were running on. Poly aftertouch churns out an awful lot of data and it's not so long ago that thinning out single channel 7-bit MIDI CC messages was sometimes necessary. I suspect one reason for the current popularity of partially or wholly control-voltage operated synths (as well as the sound) is the restrictions created by 7-bit MIDI because of the "stepping" effect it can cause. Many instruments try to smooth out stepping for things like filter frequency sweeps, but with varying degrees of success. CV synths also offer microtuning possibilities that MIDI's 128 notes a semitone apart doesn't allow for anything like as easily. A general move to 12-bit MIDI would be a step in the right direction, but while some DAWs handle it well from a user point of view (e.g. Sonar), others take a less user-friendly approach (e.g. Logic and Live). And few hardware manufacturers and soft-synth coders seem to want to engage with it at all other than for pitch bend. Anderton
We live in an age of clickbait headlines...
Don't we just. The controllers such as McMIllen's, the Linnstrument and ROLI offer a lot of possibilities. but so did Don Buchla's approach to controllers back in the early days of modulars, and the trautonium and theremin in the 1920s and 30s. Moog's use of the simple, familiar keyboard won out however. And there's an argument to be had that for sending signals corresponding to notes is most easily done with a set of on/off switches and the most familiar, tried and tested for centuries musical one note per switch and one switch per note system is the keyboard. I suspect a musician who's primarily a keyboard player and has spent thousands of hours perfecting their technique on a conventional board might find the feel and response of the "unconventional" controllers very strange and unintuitive. Moving away from a keyboard-style layout may or may not help with that. I guess we'll have to wait and see if they catch on with a mass user-base or remain a niche thing.
Sonar Platinum 64bit, Windows 8.1 Pro 64bit, I7 3770K Ivybridge, 16GB Ram, Gigabyte Z77-D3H m/board, ATI 7750 graphics+ 1GB RAM, 2xIntel 520 series 220GB SSDs, 1 TB Samsung F3 + 1 TB WD HDDs, Seasonic fanless 460W psu, RME Fireface UFX, Focusrite Octopre. Assorted real synths, guitars, mandolins, diatonic accordions, percussion, fx and other stuff.
|
Jim Roseberry
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 9871
- Joined: 2004/03/23 11:34:51
- Location: Ohio
- Status: offline
Re: Multidimensional Polyphonic Expression (MPE)
2017/07/06 21:31:28
(permalink)
☄ Helpfulby glennstanton 2017/07/07 15:21:35
Roger Linn demonstrated his Linnstrument for me at GearFest. Absolutely blew my mind... watching/hearing that level of expression coming from a MIDI controller. Roger is a genius... and getting to hear the logic/thought behind the design clinched it. Decided then and there that I was getting one. Before actually seeing/playing the Linnstrument and Roli keyboards, I (like many others) was a little quick to dismiss them as simply "alternate" controllers... that would ultimately fade away. Once you hear a solo line played with a MPE controller, traditional MIDI keyboard controllers seem archaic. MIDI has been largely static for many years (other than virtual instruments)... but is poised to take a major leap forward. For those doing scoring work, the ability to play instruments where you control subtle timber, pitch, breath, and bowing nuances is a game changer. Was talking with Fred Coury about this a few days back. He recently had to score a scene for The Night Shift... where the character was playing a cello. This particular actor knew nothing about the cello... but Fred had to mimic his "unconventional" performance. (Though famous for being a drummer, Fred actually started musical life as a violin player.) Was a slow/tedious process to mock that performance using a traditional MIDI keyboard controller. Showed this video (bowing example) to Fred... and he now wants a Linnstrument. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwRH2iHo58w The Roli keyboards are just as exciting in their own way. Want to ultimately get the 61-key. At $3k, it's double the cost of the Linnstrument. Out of everything at GearFest 2017, the Roli keyboards and Linnstrument were hands down (for me) the two standouts.
|
tlw
Max Output Level: -49.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 2567
- Joined: 2008/10/11 22:06:32
- Location: West Midlands, UK
- Status: offline
Re: Multidimensional Polyphonic Expression (MPE)
2017/07/07 23:04:50
(permalink)
That video's very impressive, much more so than some of Linn's own youtube videos. One of the most realistic "faked bowed instruments" I've ever heard. It also helps that the musician obviously understands how bowing is done and the "real thing" is played. Something some keyboard players don't always pay enough attention to when using samplers.
Sonar Platinum 64bit, Windows 8.1 Pro 64bit, I7 3770K Ivybridge, 16GB Ram, Gigabyte Z77-D3H m/board, ATI 7750 graphics+ 1GB RAM, 2xIntel 520 series 220GB SSDs, 1 TB Samsung F3 + 1 TB WD HDDs, Seasonic fanless 460W psu, RME Fireface UFX, Focusrite Octopre. Assorted real synths, guitars, mandolins, diatonic accordions, percussion, fx and other stuff.
|
bitflipper
01100010 01101001 01110100 01100110 01101100 01101
- Total Posts : 26036
- Joined: 2006/09/17 11:23:23
- Location: Everett, WA USA
- Status: offline
Re: Multidimensional Polyphonic Expression (MPE)
2017/07/07 23:51:46
(permalink)
But does this have anything to do with MPE?
 All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
|
Jim Roseberry
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 9871
- Joined: 2004/03/23 11:34:51
- Location: Ohio
- Status: offline
Re: Multidimensional Polyphonic Expression (MPE)
2017/07/08 00:12:47
(permalink)
Not sure what you mean...
My point is that one might initially dismiss MPE controllers...
But if you actually see one first hand... you realize that they open a new world to MIDI control.
MPE is an exciting development... in a MIDI world that's been largely static for decades.
|
Rob Farion
Max Output Level: -90 dBFS
- Total Posts : 2
- Joined: 2015/04/14 23:50:38
- Status: offline
Re: Multidimensional Polyphonic Expression (MPE)
2017/10/19 18:46:12
(permalink)
Hi. I recently purchased the ROLLI Rise 49. I find that when using the included Equator synth as a VST instrument in Sonar, some of the MPE functions do not respond on many patches (as compared to running the synth stand-alone). Also, not sure how to set it up to work with a sustain pedal? All of this works well when I tried the included version of Bitwig. Any tips would be very much appreciated!
I have Sonar Platinum but have done very little with midi for several years. It is so fun to play with it again and with this extraordinary new level of expression!
Thanks for any advise!
Computer is an older core 2 quad Q6600 with 3Gig ram running win 7 64bit
|
hermanoantequera
Max Output Level: -90 dBFS
- Total Posts : 15
- Joined: 2015/11/24 12:02:14
- Status: offline
Re: Multidimensional Polyphonic Expression (MPE)
2017/11/13 17:57:41
(permalink)
Hey @Rob Farion, I've just purchased the RISE 49 and am desparate to set it up in Sonar. Have you found out how to do it yet? And if so, could you share the information with us please? Or anyone else for that matter. Thanks.
|