Multiple Catanya instances working for certain configs?

There was a recent topic that got locked for getting a little heated between a couple posters (I guess), but the original subject was important, darnit, and I want to open the discussion back up to that original topic, if I could.
 
User "Auto Da Fe" (JR) noted that with the Sonar 8.5.3 release, he/she (sorry, just don't know) was able to load and use multiple instances of Catanya, with multiple synths, with no problems.  Meanwhile, user Yendor was still unable to do so.  I was hoping both JR and Yendor could go into more detail about their setup, so we could possibly determine what might be the key to making Sonar/Catanya work with multiple instances.
 
Since there's no telling how long it'll take for the issue to be resolved by Cake or 7Aliens or whomever, I think it'd be beneficial to keep the "configuration" discussion going between JR and... the rest of us, so we might have a chance of finding the solution sooner rather than later, our darn selves.  A lot of us are holding off purchasing Catanya for just this very reason.
 
So, JR, are you out there?......

OK, I'm back.  Did you miss me?

I inserted 2 instances of Catanya into a blank project and sent one output to Vanguard, the other output to Albino 3 and put a short MIDI clip in each.  The first time I hit play, I got what sounded like some sort of cancellation - Albino played brief (staccato-like) notes at random here and there, Vanguard didn't play at all.  So, I soloed Vanguard and its corresponding instance of Catanya, hit play, and Sonar crashed.  I created the proejct again, and the second time, Sonar crashed as soon as I hit play.

My computer specs are in my sig and I'm currently on 32-bit Sonar 8.5.2 (I'm not upgrading to 8.5.3 until I finish my current projects!).

Note : we are discussing Catanya crashing in Sonar...not midi x-talk issue!!  I mistakenly confiused these issues in a previous thread and for that I deserve 40 lashes with a wet noodle.

I have been able to confirm that it is the 'multi processing engine' option in audio option menu.

I can very consistently cause Sonar to crash by enabling or disabling this option.  When enabled (checked) Sonar immediately crashes.  When disabled (not checked) it plays perfectly.

In a PM to Yendor I told him I had it enabled, but I forgot that I had disabled it a while back when troubleshooting Catanya issue.  Sorry Yendor!

All my other specs are in my signature.

BTW...on all my devices I am at the latest Win 7 drivers and Win 7 is patched to latest as well.  I also have the latest version of Catanya too ( the one that says it is for a cuabse fix or something like that)

I think the best thing you can do in this situation is to file a bug report by going here. Also include clear steps (starting from a blank project) that can be used to reproduce it. Even if you know someone else filed a report for the same bug, the number of reports gives CW an idea how many people run into the particular issue.

Also, if you can simplify the steps, that would help. For instance, in this case I think you might not even need any soft synths, just multiple Catanya instances (although that is just speculation, but I think I was able to repro the crashing issue without any soft synths present). Edit: If I remember correctly, you can't just have the multiple Catanya instances, you actually need them to all send out events at the same time for the crash to occur, so you need to select a pattern in each instance.

Something else... I think you can repro this with Jamstix as well (but be sure to enable MIDI out), so if it does, it would be good to mention that as well since it will help to eliminate Catanya as the culprit. Anything to narrow it down and remove unknowns would help.

Good ideas, guys.
 
Also, just in the interest of continuity, comparison, and further kibitzing, I thought I'd re-post what Yendor had reported in the other thread:
 
"Welp, multiple instances of Catanya 1.0.1 still crashes on me w/ the 8.5.3 update.   If I turn off the multiprocessing engine, I'm able to get at least 2 instances up playing (didn't try 3), but no audio out.   In some cases it wouldn't even let me copy the midi pattern into the 2nd instance of catanya, which leads me to think that some of my problems are being caused by something else... For what it's worth, I'm have an AMD Phenom 9500 Quad Core, 3 Gig RAM, Vista 32.   I had latency set to minimum, as well."

Catanya is a VST instrument, not an effect or MIDI plugin.  I'm not on 64-bit so I can't help with regard to J-Bridge.  But if Sonar is seeing it as an Audio Effect, open the Plug-in Manager, select Catanya from the Registered Plug-ins list and select the following:

Enable as plug-in
Configure as synth
Do not intercept NRPNs (I do this as a safety with dodgy plugins)
Enable delay compensation
Serialize Host Access (which should help with the crashing of multiple instances but won't)

Then add it to your Instruments menu.  To load it in, go to the instrument rack and add it there.  That does it in 32-bit.  Hopefully it's a similar process in 64-bit.

Good luck!

You have to either check the "Enable MIDI Output" option when you insert Catanya, or you have to go to the synth rack afterwards and right click on Catanya and select "Enable MIDI Output". Then you have to insert another synth, and set its MIDI track's input to Catanya which will now be available as a MIDI input.

Also, bear in mind that you will be playing on the MIDI track feeding into Catanya but the MIDI output from it will be playing your synth.  You will probably need to activate Input Echo on the synth to hear the results of your playing.  It's a little confusing the first time around, but it makes sense after a bit...

All those little 'ghost notes'.........That may be the now famous 'midi x-talk bug'.....

I will step aside and let Silk Tone take over

madfloyd


Thanks.

I have it working in x32 bit, but it doesn't work in x64 bit (enabling midi output seems to get ignored).

Unfortunately it seems very buggy (at least that's been my experience so far): When you choose a pattern and then compare it to the pattern displayed in Catanyas Sequencer panel, it's pretty close, but it seems to add various ghost notes (with miniscule durations) at the beginning of each bar, which screws up the performance.  I have to go in and manually edit (delete) these.

Also, almost every other synth that I add to the project gets affected by Catanya even though they're not being routed through it.  I can sometimes get it to stop, but it doesn't seem to be consistent.

Welcome to the MIDI crosstalk bug, even though I am forbidden to speak of it...
 
The best you can do in this situation is log an official bug report here.

madfloyd, if you're convinced it's the dreaded MIDI bug, please help us out and report it as SilkTone suggested.  It's not the immediate fix you're looking for but it's important that we get this issue on the radar for future releases.  Meanwhile, consider subhosting as a temporary workaround.

madfloyd,

Sure, happy to help.

1.  First look in the Registered Plug-ins list in the Plug-in Manager.

2.  Select energyXT  (I'm using energyXT2, but this should work with other versions)

3.  Select the Plug-in Properties button.

4.  Select "Enable as plug-in", "Configure as synth", "Enable delay compensation"

5.  Add energyXT to your Layout menu on the right.

6.  Save and close the Plug-in Manager.

7.  Open the Synth Rack and click the plus icon.

8.  Add energyXT to the rack.  In the Options panel, select "MIDI Source", "First Synth Audio Output" and "Enable MIDI Output".

That should do it for adding energyXT.  Now for starters...  (Bear in mind it's been some months since I did this, so I'm a little fuzzy on the details.

9.  If you're using energyXT you're going to want to visit http://thepiz.org/pizmidi/.  Download the Piz MIDI Plugin Collection.  As I understand it, the 1.x versions of energyXT included a number of tools that haven't yet been written for version 2.x.

10.  You may also need to visit http://www.asseca.com/mgui/index.html for the mGUI VST plugin.  I think the PIZ plugins require this but I don't recall.

11.  Open the eXT browser pane on the left if it's not already open.  (If it's your first time, you may need to tell eXT where your VST plugins live.)  Navigate to Catanya and drag it into the nodal view on the right.

12.  Double click on Catanya and it should pop open.  Up at the top you'll see text that says "M.Ch  All".  Click on "All and drag it up to "1".  This sets Catanya to only work on MIDI channel 1.

13.  Select the pattern of your choice in Catanya and close it.

14.  Now navigate to the piz plugins.  I keep mine in the same folder as the Asseca stuff.  Drag over "midiChs_noGUI".  Double click it to open it.  Set the "M.Ch" to 1 as you did with Catanya.  Now set the "1->" line to "1".  The rest of the channels can be blank.  I don't know if this is strictly necessary.

15.  Now connect the green connectors from MIDI In to Catanya to midiChs to MIDI Out.  Set the energyXT tempo to your project tempo.  I'm not certain why this doesn't automatically occur.  Press the Play arrow in energyXT so it plays back when Sonar does.  Close energyXT.

16.  Now in Sonar, route a MIDI track to energyXT Channel 1.

17.  Go to a synth of your choice and set the MIDI input to energyXT Channel 1.

Follow the tutorial instruments for Catanya and it should all work for you.

If you've purchased energyXT, saving should be available.  That means you can continue to add devices and channels to energyXT and save out the whole setup.  Next time you need it, just load up the setup.  Better still, make a template in Sonar with all of this already configured.  You can load it up and get working in a flash, though each time you will need to open the energyXT panel is click the Play arrow.  The state of this button does not save with Sonar.  Also, don't forget to set a unique MIDI in/out channel for each device.


Caveats:

On one occasion, the energyXT VSTi could not be pointed to its license from within Sonar.  I had to load it in another application and point it at the file.  After that everything was fine.

I'm not absolutely certain that everything is properly sync-locked.  It concerns me that changing the tempo in energyXT causes some devices to play at the energyXT tempo, not Sonar's.  Other devices seem to lock all the way back to Sonar.  Keep the tempo set to Sonar's tempo.

If you've never used a nodal interface before, at first blush it can seem a little daunting.  But work with it for a few minutes and you'll find it to be amazingly flexible and intuitive.

Good luck!

This happens in 32-bit Sonar?  Also, check your effects plugins.  Does it show up there?  There are two versions of EnergyXT.  One is a VST and the other is a VSTi.  I think both should have been in the installation.

Forgive me for stating the blindingly obvious, but please verify that

- the energyXT VSTi is in with your VST plugins, not just installed on your system.  I don't think the installer automatically puts the VSTi in your VST folder so you will need to do it manually.  Also, remember that energyXT has both a VST and VSTi plugin.  You want the VSTi for these instructions.

- that you're using 32-bit Sonar for your initial tests.  I have no idea whether it will work with 64-bit

- that you have not inadvertently disabled these plugins in the Plug-in Manager.  It shouldn't be disabled and probably isn't, but I'm grasping at straws here.  Even if you know you haven't disabled them, I would still check to see what VSTi's are disabled.

- try running the standalone version of energyXT before trying again in Sonar.  I've run into standalone programs that need to initialize configs before the VST versions will work.   It's possible that you're running into something like that.  Use the standalone version to set all your options and paths.  I have run into issues where Sonar appeared to be blocking the licensing routines in energyXT, so maybe there are other parameters that Sonar is somehow blocking.  Make sure you close the standalone version before starting Sonar.

That's all I can think of at the moment.  I can only assure you that it does run in Sonar and I do so on a regular basis.  That doesn't make it any less frustrating on your end, but at least you'll know that it should work.

Good luck!     

Glad it's working for you.  You'll need to spend a little time with the documentation, but the good news is that the VSTi version is only a subset of the full capabilities of the package so you won't need to learn much to get started.

When you're ready, try the rest of the steps I outlined and you should be able to run multiple VSTi's with relative ease.