Multiple Fast Track Ultra 8R Via ASIO4ALL

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bullo
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2010/09/20 10:29:03 (permalink)

Multiple Fast Track Ultra 8R Via ASIO4ALL

Hi!

I have a question. The interface m-audio Fast Track Ultra seems to be very decent and affordable. Users report good performance and especially low round-trip latency.
Now, it lack daisy-chaining units. I think it is a pity.

As we know, when working with ASIO, only one DRIVER can be selected at a time. The driver itself has do be 'chained' to another interface.
Now, it IS possible to use many interfaces with a single ASIO driver using ASIO4 ALL. That works because asio4all 'wraps' WDM drivers.
Many say that, whereas it's possible, doing so would give Timing problems. That makes sense, because 2 different model of interfaces have different clocks and thus, slight time deviation.

now the question: What about using asio4all to chain 2 (or more) "SAME" interfaces, such as Fast Track Ultra 8R?

Being the same interface being chained, would I still have timing/sync problems? if so, why? can we avoid it?

Of course that ASIO4ALL will not have the same performance as the native ASIO driver. That, however, should not be a problem. I would use many chanined interfaces onfly when tracking I would not need to lowest latency available.

thanks you your opinion.

Regards,
Danny Bullo


#1

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    Beagle
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    Re:Multiple Fast Track Ultra 8R Via ASIO4ALL 2010/09/20 11:03:10 (permalink)
    no - when you use ASIO driver mode you can only select one driver at a time.  that's the ASIO protocol that dictates that.  since you are using an ASIO protocol then you can only select one driver.

    if you want that many analog inputs, I'd suggest going with something like the MOTU 828mk3 so that you can use the ADAT from one unit to another.

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    #2
    bullo
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    Re:Multiple Fast Track Ultra 8R Via ASIO4ALL 2010/09/20 11:32:47 (permalink)
    Thank you Beagle.

    I think you misunderstood me. I know you can only select one asio driver at a time. I meant to use asio4all to aggregate devices. It is 100% possible. I just asked it it ould work ok, considering that the 2 interfaces would be the same (it should not be out of sinc problems)

    Regards,
    Danny
    #3
    Beagle
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    Re:Multiple Fast Track Ultra 8R Via ASIO4ALL 2010/09/20 11:44:08 (permalink)
    Hi Danny -
    I haven't used ASIO4ALL in a long time, so maybe the later revisions allow 2 cards to be used at the same time, but if it does that's a violation of the ASIO protocol, so it's going beyond what ASIO is supposed to do.  the older version that I used did not allow this capability.

    however, if ASIO4ALL will do as you say it will, then I would still think that it cannot sync the two units regardless of allowing both to be used.  the hardware has to be designed to work in sync before the drivers will allow it and the hardware on the ultra 8 is not designed to use one clock instead of 2, so you still should get tracks that are out of sync with each other because they have separate clocks.

    if the ultra had ADAT or word clock then you could do what you're wanting without sync problems, but as it is, I am fairly certain that it will have sync problems if you use them both at the same time (maybe not noticable for short recordings, but definitely noticable for full song takes).

    http://soundcloud.com/beaglesound/sets/featured-songs-1
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    #4
    bullo
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    Re:Multiple Fast Track Ultra 8R Via ASIO4ALL 2010/09/20 12:00:44 (permalink)
    Beagle.

    ASIO4ALL 'wraps' WDM drivers and generates an ASIO interface to 'the external world'. That means that is you configure asio4all with multiple audio cards, then if you select asio4all in your DAW, it will see just one asio driver. Internally, that unique driver will include the aggregated devices.

    Probably you are right, even with the same card, it would go out of sinc.

    thank you again

    Danny Bullo

    #5
    Beagle
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    Re:Multiple Fast Track Ultra 8R Via ASIO4ALL 2010/09/20 12:30:25 (permalink)
    ASIO4ALL 'wraps' WDM drivers and generates an ASIO interface to 'the external world'. That means that is you configure asio4all with multiple audio cards, then if you select asio4all in your DAW, it will see just one asio driver.

    Danny- yes, I do know that ASIO4ALL is a WDM wrapper.  when I had used it several years ago it would still not treat all soundcards as one ASIO driver, or at least it would not do so with the soundcard combinations I was trying to use.

    regardless, there's still no way to sync the clocks in ASIO4ALL or WDM driver mode and that's the bottom line for your question.

    http://soundcloud.com/beaglesound/sets/featured-songs-1
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    #6
    RobertB
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    Re:Multiple Fast Track Ultra 8R Via ASIO4ALL 2010/09/20 21:01:19 (permalink)
    Copy that.
    It's all about syncing everything to one clock. The Fast Track is designed to be a solo unit.
    Many (if not all) of the M-Audio PCI cards can be configured with multiple cards. They slave the additional cards to the clock in the master card.
    Considering the cost of buying several Fast Track Ultras, and potential problems getting them to work together, maybe something like the Line6 UX8 would be a more plausible solution.
    I'm not necessarily recommending the UX8, but a device of this type seems to be where you want to go.
    And you would be able to use the native ASIO drivers.

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    Shimozu-Kushiari or Bob
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    Beagle
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    Re:Multiple Fast Track Ultra 8R Via ASIO4ALL 2010/09/20 21:44:56 (permalink)
    Bob - it's pretty rare when I disagree with you, but I think you've missed a point here.  the OP is wanting to sync together 2 FASTTRACK ULTRA 8R's - those are the new 8 input units, not the fast track with only 4 inputs.

    so ONE Line 6 UX8 is not any better to him than ONE FAST TRACK ULTRA 8R.  he'd still have the same problem trying to get 16 inputs from 2 UX8's because they can't be sync'd either.

    what he needs for 16 channels is something like the MOTU 896MK3 where he can use the ADAT lightpipe to sync the 2 units together.

    http://soundcloud.com/beaglesound/sets/featured-songs-1
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    #8
    bullo
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    Re:Multiple Fast Track Ultra 8R Via ASIO4ALL 2010/09/21 13:43:33 (permalink)
    Thank you all!

    I see what you mean. The reason why I would insist on doing this is because there are only 2 or 3 USB 2.0 interfaces out there that offer round-trip latency on pair with a good PCI/PCIe card. According to many users, the FAST TRACK ULTRA 8R delivers 5.5ms of Round-trip latency, measured with CENTRANCE tool. Most cards I've tried (except pci) have latency of +11ms.

    Firewire cards are getting totally obsoletes for mobile recording because NO new generation laptop comes with with Texas Instrument firewire chipset.
    I know…the TI firewire chipset and the Round-trip latency are huge subjects not related to this post. Those topics have been discussed fro yearas.

    Best regards,
    Danny Bullo
    #9
    RobertB
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    Re:Multiple Fast Track Ultra 8R Via ASIO4ALL 2010/09/21 14:53:07 (permalink)
    Right you are, Reece. I missed the 8R, and I was thinking of the older units. The MOTU does look like a better call.

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    Shimozu-Kushiari or Bob
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    Beagle
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    Re:Multiple Fast Track Ultra 8R Via ASIO4ALL 2010/09/22 09:09:40 (permalink)
    Danny - you are correct that firewire is being excluded from new laptops, but I believe the support for firewire interfaces will still be here for several years and you can always get a cardbus Firewire with TI chipset in it.

    I can't think of any USB devices that have ADAT or wordclock - there may be some available, but I can't think of any.  for that many channels you probably have to go with firewire or PCI/PCIe

    http://soundcloud.com/beaglesound/sets/featured-songs-1
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    #11
    bullo
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    Re:Multiple Fast Track Ultra 8R Via ASIO4ALL 2010/09/22 13:20:27 (permalink)
    Beagle, there is another long discussion about adding an express card FW card with TI chipset. The truth is that not always circumvents the problem because usually the same controller of the FW controls the Expresss bus.

    regards,
    Danny Bullo

    PS: I have a Presunus Firebox Firewire running on the 'famour dreaded' ricoh chipset. Believe me, it is not bad. for some people it is unusable. But that is  2 years old laptop. Some people report that they cant even use FW interfaces with new laptops coming with JMicron Chipset. Sometimes the interface simply wont install
    #12
    Beagle
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    Re:Multiple Fast Track Ultra 8R Via ASIO4ALL 2010/09/22 13:29:04 (permalink)
    I don't have any experience with using a cardbus to firewire card, so I'll take the word of those who have tried it.

    honestly I have my MOTU running on a VIA chipset firewire card and have not had any problems that everyone complains about either.  I've not tried to push the card - I'm not recording more than 2 inputs at a time right now, so I might run into problems when I push it harder, but so far all is well!

    http://soundcloud.com/beaglesound/sets/featured-songs-1
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    #13
    ohhey
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    Re:Multiple Fast Track Ultra 8R Via ASIO4ALL 2010/09/22 13:43:34 (permalink)
    bullo


    Hi!

    I have a question. The interface m-audio Fast Track Ultra seems to be very decent and affordable. Users report good performance and especially low round-trip latency.
    Now, it lack daisy-chaining units. I think it is a pity.

    As we know, when working with ASIO, only one DRIVER can be selected at a time. The driver itself has do be 'chained' to another interface.
    Now, it IS possible to use many interfaces with a single ASIO driver using ASIO4 ALL. That works because asio4all 'wraps' WDM drivers.
    Many say that, whereas it's possible, doing so would give Timing problems. That makes sense, because 2 different model of interfaces have different clocks and thus, slight time deviation.

    now the question: What about using asio4all to chain 2 (or more) "SAME" interfaces, such as Fast Track Ultra 8R?

    Being the same interface being chained, would I still have timing/sync problems? if so, why? can we avoid it?

    Of course that ASIO4ALL will not have the same performance as the native ASIO driver. That, however, should not be a problem. I would use many chanined interfaces onfly when tracking I would not need to lowest latency available.

    thanks you your opinion.

    Regards,
    Danny Bullo


    Sample rate clock is still an issue even if the driver will work both interfaces.  The M-Audio doesn't have word clock but you can use SPDIF. That would also give you a monitor path between the two because it can also do stereo audio. 

    Another thing to consider is the software control panel/mixer. Will it let you change settings for each unit ? do they both show up ?  ASIO4ALL does not provide those functions.

    As for having two of the same units I don't think ASIO4ALL knows or cares if that's true or not.

    I just downloaded the manual and it doesn't look like the M-Audio has any support for more then one unit. You might contact them and see if there is a plan for that.  MOTU seems to have the best multi-unit support, and I think RME and Lynx have some also.
    post edited by ohhey - 2010/09/22 14:12:23
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