Music Licensing SUCKS Continued

Scott, have you contacted anyone at BMI/ASCAP to find out what their position actually is on these matters?

actually........... quitting is a "good thing" for the PRO... it's one less account they have to maintain in their system.

Actually it is not. The PRO's depend on the fiction that collectively they represent all the authors of everything you could play, or a very large percentage thereof. So the assumption they take to court is that if you are playing music you are playing their clients' music. Piling on thousands of clients who never require a payment is a minimum cost to them to support the argument that no matter how obscure your music source, or how scrupulously you avoid the billboard hits, you have almost certainly infringed on something they license.

I think the refs mis-called this one.

Impossible.

By registering with the Cakewalk Forum, users agree that any post the moderators consider inappropriate may be removed at the moderator's sole discretion.

slartabartfast

any post the moderators consider inappropriate may be removed at the moderator's sole discretion.

Removing a post or two would have been the appropriate action here. Instead the personal attacks remain online and the thread is locked.

then you'll need to take your complaint up with the mods.  there's nothing we can do about it here (except complain!)

slartabartfast

there's nothing we can do about it here

Goodness gracious, Beagle, who do you think thinks anyone can do anything about anything here?

wow.  such hostility in the coffee house.  chill man - it's just a forum!  don't take life too seriously or you'll end it too quickly for yourself!
 
here...have a beer on me!  
  
 

Goodness gracious is hostility?

I guess it looks much worse in print.

Please excuse my insensitivity to your feelings, everyone.

no hard feelings at all slart!

Crg and and anyone who thinks I'm just flying off the handle here and creating fiction,

Yeah, we're doing research and contacting professional help.  My friend is actually sending me copies of actual letters, and she is not only seeing her lawyer, but she is visiting a copyright lawyer.  We're not taking our own personal feelings or words for it.  We're seeking professional advice, and everything I'm hearing makes me even more happy I'm disassociating myself and my music from these crooks.

Here's more from my friend, and again, I will continue to post everything we get regarding this situation.  I'm done trying to convince anyone; if you can't read the fine print, then nothing anyone can say here will convince you either:

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Wow...that is almost exactly what I said to my attorney about derivative rights. That's like saying nothing is new anymore. Anyways, my attorney has made me an appt to talk with a copyright attorney in Nashville on Thurs morning. I will let you know the outcome. One of the kids at the restaurant said that it almost seems like a 1st ammendment violation. It does.....sort of. My attorneyt told me to discuss the idea that they assume I am making profit from the music. Which really isn't true. I have had everything from country to indie to rap to jazz at the restaurants and at times it has actually cost me business. Jason told me he would try to give me a call tonight. We'll see where things go from here. Talk to you later. Love ya.



 
Ps. According to BMI....YES I have to tell Emily that she cannot sing while she is working.


That PS is just the final nail in the coffin for me.  YOU HAVE GOT TO BE JOKING!!!!!

This was what her attorney said about DERIVITIVE WORKS.

Again, I'm only posting words from lawyers here, passed along by my friend:

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Okay, I just got done meeting with my attorney and it don't look good. I asked him about having bands do original material and he told me that the problem with that is that the PROs will target you and claim that they are "derivative works". A drivative work is a song that is not wholly original, it has sprang out of hearing something somewhere else. However, that because it is altered enough it can be copyrighted on its own then it is no longer a derivative work....or something like that. He told me something about how a recording exec will often retain 50% of the copyright when they sign a band and they work with these PRO. He agreed that it is basically legalized extortion. He explained that they will often hire musicians or music teachers to spy for them. (Now thats scary.)

spindlebox


I will send you copies of what I have recieved. If you notice most of these articles are fairly recent. One of the packets I received was titled something like "HOW NEW MUSIC COPYRIGHT LAWS MAY AFFECT YOU" Apparently, there have been some fairly recent changes which may be giving them the authority to go after everyone. I was talking to a guy from the funeral home and he told me that they sent him a letter stating that he couldn't play any unlicensed music at any funerals. Now thats cold. If you die your family can no longer have your favorite song played at your funeral. Its musical facism. What the ****?

 
It's the same thing with EULA's anywhere. And one of these days congress is going to nail someone for them ... companies are changing these at will in the fine print, figuring you're too stupid to even care what that fine print says, and the way it is worded is so convoluted and messed up that ... no one is going to check it anyway! ... and all the little ones out there that can't afford a lawyer aren't gonna read it anyhow!
 
In my book, this is a Library of Congress issue to nail down this **** and then make sure it gets adhered to, since there are a lot of record companies that are playing ... who cares and hooky with it anyway ...
 
And if my name was the funeral home I would have played it ... and then let all the newspapers know what was done and said and the gross injusticew to someone's memory ... that greed is all this is about.
 
The popularity off that should get Congress with a hardon!
 
But the only way you can get stuff like that addresses? Get rid of 100 Senators and 500 House of Representatives and get 600 new ones that give a damn about that stuff ... and specially ... YOU and US ... and watch the law get cleaned up over night!
 
Your moaning and groaning is not going to help and too many folks will say you are this and that, even though, theoretically, you are 100% right. The problem being this country does not have alternative publications that would go after the corrupted ways that many of these companies that feel "priviledged" are essentially simply making sure they can continue making money for themselves ... not the artists, because the percentage that ends up in the artist's hands is so small as to make you and I and this whole board totally sick!

Instead of ****ing, start an artists' community, get lawyers on your side and make sure those other companies never see a penny ... and when you make 100 million off it they are going to kiss you all over and upside down ... and then you can call McCartney/Jackson/Prince money and finger them all for their corruption! By that time I doubt you will care much anyway like most of us! Too old to give a damn and it's easier to be cynical about it all!

spindlebox


If all I could do was see that people weren't badgered, harassed, villified, accused, and haunted by these vultures - I'd go to sleep each night a happy man.  I DO care.
 
Music should be for all to enjoy.  Certainly, we have to make money, but I'm not going to do it whilst making others miserable.
 

You don't have to tell me ... I've been ripped off ... and in the end even have to put up with the insolence of people making fun of it here ... a while back.
 
It happens to be an issue that is important to me ... but I know one thing that those thieves don't ... they are not me ... they will never be able to do something good or right with that piece of work ... because that piece was me ... and as such they are cursed to never succeed and get anything out of it, even after I die.
 
It's their choice ... their greed or their evil ... and in the end, they will taste it worse than I ever will!

Continued from that locked thread!

    Spindlebox;
A "drop in the bucket", a single one at a time, will eventually turn into LOTS of water . . . .

Your bucket has holes in it, big gaping holes in it.

1st post - The article-link your post is out-dated (old) but I did a search of the title; 'Voluntary Collective Licensing' which led to a blog by some unknown. Nothing there in that article that I would consider getting up in arms about.

Also, you want to talk POLITICS *ahem* you mention; Bush but he is long gone Obama is now the president, since then there's been a change BUT more like a reassurance to ensure royalties/collections are 'fair' and to continue catching 'illegal' activities such as; 'unlicensed' and 'piracy'.

Cracking down on 'illegal activities' is not new news, and with all due respect thanks to collections including assistance from other countries such as; Australia and the UK copyrights, along with public reports licensing is being monitored to help catch the crooks 'illegal' activities such as; 'unlicensed' and 'piracy'.


   Spindlebox;
   I'm done trying to convince anyone

Yet here you are again on a crusade trying to convince everyone to give up their royalty payments, to cancel their membership with collections such as; BMI, ASCAP, and instead get a 'Creative Commons' license.

Like I said, go ahead and cancel your membership, go ahead and get a Creative Commons license which btw is perpetual.

   Spindlebox;
I was told by an Australian associate that we need to license our works with a CREATIVE COMMONS license.

In that locked thread (continued to this new thread)

Like I said, don't expect others to follow your advice.

Spindlebox;
…I’m education

You honestly think we’re all that stupid!  FWIW what others and I are trying to get through to you is that; there's a way to approach this matter in a sensible and effective manner.

Your attitude will not get you far, you want to talk politics, laws, whatnot, that thread got locked and immediately you want to persist/continue trying to convince others to cancel their membership (collections associations/societies such as; BMI, ASCAP) asking for writers to forfeit their royalty checks and instead get a creative commons license.

The fact is; collections expect people to abide by the law is nothing new. Come on man, being 'unlicensed' is illegal as much as 'piracy' because both activities are illegal

Although you deny it, your constant whining is most likely due to you being unsuccessful, unhappy because you're not getting any royalty checks, not been paid in the past 17 years (according to your own post in that locked thread), and I bet you have hardly if not performed at major venues, not even support act let alone headline at major venues because if you did you would have received a royalty check...

...you fell under the threshold, you're returns hardly worth a penny.  Come on man do you honestly expect to get equal royalty payment $$,$$$ equal amount to 'truly' successful writers such as; Paul McCartney.  Let's put this into perspective; you perform at a small restaurant (crowd capacity = less than 100 and I suspect is unlicensed (music-user)) vs. larger concert venue (crowd capacity = 10,000+ licensed) and you expect equal payment (royalty check), for crying out loud man you're dreaming.

....let me make one thing loud and clear to you Mr.Spindlebox; it’s unfortunate but true that only a very small percentage of writers/artists are truly successful. That's the cold hard facts.  Either you wake up to reality or find yourself another profession and be content doing music as a ‘hobby’, do it for fun, enjoy it.

Seriously, your 'Call to Arms', asking everyone to cancel their membership; BMI, ASCAP, APRA-AMCOS, PRS,  you're going about it all the wrong way.  No doubt your bucket has big gaping holes in it man, I mean really huge big gaping holes, it’s a wonder you can hold one drop of water.

I can point you in the right direction on how to deal with this 'licensing issue', and I have but you can't seem to see past your own ignorance, and you appear to lack understanding and respect towards me and other fellow writers/artists as you have displayed hostility (see other thread)

Do you realise that collections organizations are mostly staffed by writers, the board are made up of writers, and all proposed changes are reviewed by independent sources (QC - Judge (AU), Federal and states gov US)).

In that locked thread (continued to this new thread)

If crooks did not try to rip off the system then the costs for licensing would not have reached its heights (costs), it’s costly because of CROOKS!! Again; ‘unlicensed’ = ‘illegal’, and so too is ‘piracy’, thereby unfortunately licensing fees have gone up over the years but hey much like other things in life.  

That is why crooks or suspected crooks get visits from agents, much like tax evasions the IRS will harass until the money is paid. 

That's life, it's a something we ALL have to live with.

So come on man, you say you're not in it for the money yet clearly you complain not receiving royalties, not a penny, nothing!

AND in yet another thread you started several months ago you had a bunch of good people here digging up excellent information to help you in regards to 'Looking for Venues that Pay'.

   Spindlebox;
People that can read, including between the lines, should act

Yes! Others and I can read, including between the lines. 

So READ THIS: I'm NOT canceling my membership (Royalties Collections) thereby forfeiting all royalty checks, and I'm NOT having my songs filed to creative commons license.

-

"The more you raise your expectations and fail, the more that failure will hurt when you fall".

That's life Mr.spindlebox, get over it!!

-

For businesses - license fees granting them legal rights to play music (Radio, CD, TV, DVD) on their premises....

Annual licensing fees:
. Radio = $93
. CD = $172.27
. Audio Jukebox = $253.35
. Video jukebox = $354.70
. Large Screen Projectors - TV's = $354.70

Note: Fees above costs more for premises that are more than 300m2 for example; Radio for premises that are more than 300m2 = $116.97 which is the maximum annual fee.

Licensing fees - 'Live Bands' (Paid by business):
The annual fee = $27.50  + 2.2% of the Applicant’s Gross Expenditure on Live Artist Performers + 1.65% of Gross Sums Paid for Admission.

Above are the Australian licensing fees.

Click Here to view fees in the US

-

Re: http://bmi.com/forms/licensing/gl/ede.pdf

I think someone should point out that in this case the JUkebox may be the best value.

The customers themselves can stuff the machine with quarters... just to make sure the music is enjoyable enough that know one gets up and walks out.

You'd lose a lot less business that way.... you might even begin thinking of BMI as a "partner" when you start counting the quarters.

best regards,
mike

mike_mccue


Re: http://bmi.com/forms/licensing/gl/ede.pdf

I think someone should point out that in this case the JUkebox may be the best value.

The customers themselves can stuff the machine with quarters... just to make sure the music is enjoyable enough that know one gets up and walks out.

You'd lose a lot less business that way.... you might even begin thinking of BMI as a "partner" when you start counting the quarters.

best regards,
mike

. TV and Radio at the lowest = $1.20 rate, for small retail shop occupancy capacity 100, approx' $120.00 annual fee. Include 10% discount (if applicable) = $108.00 annual fee.

. CD, MP3, iPod, DJ, Free-Jukebox at $2.65 rate.

. Live Bands are at the top end at $4.50 rate.  Two small venues around here have live bands 2 nights per week (Fri/Sat), occupancy is about 150 to 250 (Typical for small venue such as; Restaurant, Bar, Pub).

Please correct me if the above calculations are wrong.

* In regards to live bands - licensing fee paid by the venue; what I've seen some venues do is close off an area effectively reducing the capacity (occupancy) by up to 50%. For example; close off the dining area on fri/sat nights from 9.pm, additionally I've seen venues increase prices on drinks after 9.pm.

I have the Music Industry Directory, under venue listings not only does it supply management details, ph, address, load-in/out and sound-check times but also the venue capacity. For example; to reduce the capacity they have a stage setup in front of large double doorways that leads into another section which is usually the dining area, on fri/sat nights in front of that doorway is the stage and backdrop thereby no one can access except for the band, crew (load-in/out, between breaks), venue staff and security.  Again, effectively reducing annual licensing fee by 50% more or less and further reduced by providing that entertainment for fri/sat nights only.

Above Edited: to add further explanation *

-