Helpful ReplyMusic Theory makes much more sense in english...

Author
Rain
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 9736
  • Joined: 2003/11/07 05:10:12
  • Location: Las Vegas
  • Status: offline
2014/06/23 18:35:53 (permalink)

Music Theory makes much more sense in english...

Finally dove into the Berklee music theory books I'd ordered a little while ago, and, after 20 some years, I thought I might as well just start from scratch... 
 
And it's got me thinking just how much more sense it makes to refer to notation mathematically rather than based on notes' and rests' shape or even color, like we do in french.
 
For example, in french, a quarter note is a "black note", half notes are referred to as "white notes", a whole note is called "round note". A quarter rest would be, IIRC, a "sigh". And so on...
 
Poetic I guess, but highly impractical.
 
The other thing this made me realize is how little I trust my brain to retain the information and to learn stuff. I'm actually quite sure that I underestimate those abilities. Underwent the same thing when I studied for my driver's licence last January...
 
But in the end, I suppose it only makes things more gratifying. 
 

TCB - Tea, Cats, Books...
#1
paulo
Max Output Level: -13 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 6218
  • Joined: 2007/01/30 05:06:57
  • Status: offline
Re: Music Theory makes much more sense in english... 2014/06/23 19:03:27 (permalink)
That's me screwed then..it might as well be in Chinese when I look at that stuff.
#2
sharke
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 13933
  • Joined: 2012/08/03 00:13:00
  • Location: NYC
  • Status: offline
Re: Music Theory makes much more sense in english... 2014/06/23 19:38:41 (permalink)
I was taught to think in terms of crotchets, quavers and semi-quavers at school, and I guess now I can interchange between that and the mathematical terms quite freely. It's about as close as I'll ever get to experiencing what it's like to be bilingual.

James
Windows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
#3
Rain
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 9736
  • Joined: 2003/11/07 05:10:12
  • Location: Las Vegas
  • Status: offline
Re: Music Theory makes much more sense in english... 2014/06/23 20:26:32 (permalink)
Paulo - I would like to study Cantonese, eventually. But improving my English and getting back to German are my priorities. And then, Japanese, if I live long enough... ;)
 
Music theory, at least the basics, is not that hard; but unless someone feels the need for it, there's no point I guess. 
 
Sharke - interesting. I had forgotten about those, but now that you mention them, I remember vaguely.
 
 
 

TCB - Tea, Cats, Books...
#4
spacealf
Max Output Level: -54 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 2133
  • Joined: 2010/11/18 17:44:34
  • Status: offline
Re: Music Theory makes much more sense in english... 2014/06/25 11:04:08 (permalink)
64ths, 32nds, 16ths, 8ths, fourths, halfs, whole - all notes length values.
Then there is the triplet where you play three notes in the space of two or 1 or 4 beat notes.
 
Rests are the say way, depending what the beat and measure count of the music is.
 

I am sure the book explains it better, along with scales.
 
But is music theory (since it is only a theory) made to be broken??
 

 
 
#5
Karyn
Ma-Ma
  • Total Posts : 9200
  • Joined: 2009/01/30 08:03:10
  • Location: Lincoln, England.
  • Status: offline
Re: Music Theory makes much more sense in english... 2014/06/25 11:16:24 (permalink)
spacealf
But is music theory (since it is only a theory) made to be broken??

Bapu's bazz proves anything can be broken..

Mekashi Futo
Get 10% off all Waves plugins.
Current DAW.  i7-950, Gigabyte EX58-UD5, 12Gb RAM, 1Tb SSD, 2x2Tb HDD, nVidia GTX 260, Antec 1000W psu, Win7 64bit, Studio 192, Digimax FS, KRK RP8G2, Sonar Platinum

#6
bapu
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 86000
  • Joined: 2006/11/25 21:23:28
  • Location: Thousand Oaks, CA
  • Status: offline
Re: Music Theory makes much more sense in english... 2014/06/25 11:22:08 (permalink)
I may be off bass but I'm not sure music theory and a drivers license are in the same domain.
#7
jbow
Max Output Level: -0.2 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 7601
  • Joined: 2003/11/26 19:14:18
  • Status: offline
Re: Music Theory makes much more sense in english... 2014/06/25 13:10:31 (permalink)


Sonar Platinum
Studiocat Pro 16G RAM (some bells and whistles)
HP Pavilion dm4 1165-dx (i5)-8G RAM
Octa-Capture
KRK Rokit-8s
MIDI keyboards...
Control Pad
mics. 
I HATE THIS CMPUTER KEYBARD!
#8
spacealf
Max Output Level: -54 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 2133
  • Joined: 2010/11/18 17:44:34
  • Status: offline
Re: Music Theory makes much more sense in english... 2014/06/25 14:30:39 (permalink)
You can also learn music theory in Arabic also.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLB15kBvn_c
 
 

 
 
#9
davdud101
Max Output Level: -69 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 1058
  • Joined: 2010/07/15 13:30:44
  • Location: Detroit, MI
  • Status: offline
Re: Music Theory makes much more sense in english... 2014/06/25 14:32:56 (permalink)
Man, that is some weird terminology in French. I never actually thought of how music theory (esp. in terms of the NAMES of things) changes within different languages! I may take a look at the Arabic as well.

 
Mics: MXL 990, MXL R80, 2 x MXL Tempo XLRs, Cobalt Co9, SM48, iSK Starlight
Cans: Hifiman HE4XX, AKG M220
Gear: Cakewalk BBL - PreSonus Firepod - Alesis Elevate 3 - Axiom 49
DAW: Win10, AMD FX-8300, 16GB DDR3
#10
Moshkiae
Max Output Level: -14 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 6111
  • Joined: 2009/04/27 10:26:25
  • Status: offline
Re: Music Theory makes much more sense in english... 2014/06/25 22:47:00 (permalink)
Hi,
 
I can tell you that I had taken music lessons in Portugal when 8 or 9 years old, but the teacher was more interested in using a very heavy ruler in your hands than she was in teaching you music. She was a total stupid frustrated musician witch!
 
In Brazil we couldn't afford lessons, and none of us had anything music at all, but when I came to America at 15, I did not do too well with A and B and C, and could not figure it out, and since I spoke no English and was having a hard time in school, guess what went out the window first ... no music lessons! I kinda wish the possibility had been there, but it never happened, but I was an insane music listener and absorber of our collection of classical music, over 2k LP's and 100 operas, and then later my own collection of progressive and experimental music.
 
I'm hoping/expecting to be able to finally get into music a lot more as I get older and hopefully can slow down my work load. But the mechanical side, or numerical side of it, kinda throws me off, even though it appears simpler. I tend to play for the "sound", not the mechanical numbers, if that sounds right to anyone. But I do not know the "name" of any of the notes or can identify them at all.

As a wise Guy once stated from his holy chapala ... none of the hits, none of the time ... prevents you from becoming just another turkey in the middle of all the other turkeys! 
  
#11
sharke
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 13933
  • Joined: 2012/08/03 00:13:00
  • Location: NYC
  • Status: offline
Re: Music Theory makes much more sense in english... 2014/06/25 23:14:26 (permalink)
I'm pretty good with my music theory in that I know quite a lot about scales, chord spellings, chord functions, modulation etc. And with a guitar in my hands I can construct any chord you throw at me anywhere on the fretboard on the spot, because I know how all the notes on the guitar relate to one another interval wise. 
 
But for the most part, when I'm writing music at the computer I have absolutely no concept whatsoever of what notes I'm writing or what chords they make up. If I play a part on the keyboard, it's been picked out by ear without any theory behind it whatsoever. I also do a lot of work in the piano roll view, just setting notes down and moving them around until they either resemble what I hear in my head or until they resemble something completely different, but which I like the sound of. A lot of the parts I come up with are often quite harmonically rich, and they frequently change key (and sometimes meter). But I'll work through a whole song not knowing or even caring what those chords are. On the rare occasion I do bother to work them out, I'm usually quite surprised. For instance I recently sat down and worked out the chords of a tune I'd working on and they turned out to be Am/D7sus/Esus4/Fm/Bb/Dm/C/Bb. Those were felt out by hand at the keyboard, but I very much doubt that I would have come up with them had I been thinking in terms of music theory, either with my guitar or with pen and paper. That Fm/Bb modulation in particular. For this reason I've really been enjoying the experience of working "blind" at the keyboard and the PRV because I really do have no idea what I'm playing, unlike the guitar. 
 
The MIDI functionality has opened up a whole new area of musical composition for me and I love it. I have a few "cheats" by which I come up with stuff I would have never written in the traditional sense. One is banging out a rhythm on one key and then going back and dragging those notes out into chords in the piano roll. In this way I can develop chord parts which I would never have been able to play on the keyboard (since I'm crap at piano). Another way is by using the polyphonic MIDI conversion of Melodyne Editor to convert dense orchestral recordings into MIDI and then exploring that MIDI. For instance I took a short sample of a Percy Grainger piece and converted it to MIDI. The result was pretty much nothing like the original (I didn't bother to tidy it up in Melodyne), and then I quantized it to 16th notes. After that I just set about removing some notes, adding some notes and moving others around, using my own sense of music, until it turned into something which had my musical stamp on it, but which I never would have come up with without the "seed" of Percy Grainger's notes. 
 
I sometimes wonder if I could get by without knowing any theory at all. There's only 12 notes, after all!

James
Windows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
#12
Rain
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 9736
  • Joined: 2003/11/07 05:10:12
  • Location: Las Vegas
  • Status: offline
Re: Music Theory makes much more sense in english... 2014/06/25 23:23:32 (permalink)
FWIW, I have a couple of reasons to do this.
 
Professionally, I may have interesting openings in views which might require that I'm a proficient sight-reader and that I have a decent knowledge of theory.
 
Secondly, the project my wife and I are working on could benefit from it. For her, in certain cases, having charts really comes in handy. Same for some of the folks we'd be working with.
 
Thirdly - mental gymnastic. It's good to keep the brain stimulated and to learn stuff. As I've found out for myself, it's easy to forget how to learn and, in this day and age, working with computer, some of us tend to commit very little to memory.
 
Plus, I do have the time for it and even if it weren't the case, I think that that stuff is like training, or whatever you want to do. You need to make the time, you need to make it a priority. The difference between people who do and people who don't is often that the first made it a priority. 

TCB - Tea, Cats, Books...
#13
kennywtelejazz
Max Output Level: -3.5 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 7151
  • Joined: 2005/10/22 06:27:02
  • Location: The Planet Tele..X..
  • Status: offline
Re: Music Theory makes much more sense in english... 2014/06/25 23:56:05 (permalink)
I have a very strong background in Music Theory & Ear Training …..
FWIW ..I feel it is much more important than what type of gear I happen to use 
a lot of people don't realize that they are shortchanging them selfs by not learning Music Theory ….
when you start to understand a little about music theory , you can take what you know and recycle every thing in new and interesting combinations of musical ideas …
that alone makes it with the effort 
 
Kenny
 

                   
Oh Yeah , Life is Good .
The internet is nothing more than a glorified real time cartoon we all star in.
I play a "Gibson " R 8 Les Paul Cherry Sunburst .
The Love of my Life is an American Bulldog Named Duke . I'm currently running Cakewalk By BandLab as my DAW .
 
https://soundcloud.com/guitarist-kenny-wilson
 
https://www.youtube.com/user/Kennywtelejazz/videos?view=0&sort=dd&shelf_id=1
 
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=427899



#14
Rain
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 9736
  • Joined: 2003/11/07 05:10:12
  • Location: Las Vegas
  • Status: offline
Re: Music Theory makes much more sense in english... 2014/06/26 00:12:09 (permalink)
kennywtelejazz
I have a very strong background in Music Theory & Ear Training …..
FWIW ..I feel it is much more important than what type of gear I happen to use 
a lot of people don't realize that they are shortchanging them selfs by not learning Music Theory ….
when you start to understand a little about music theory , you can take what you know and recycle every thing in new and interesting combinations of musical ideas …
that alone makes it with the effort 
 
Kenny
 




Having heard you play, I was pretty sure that you had a solid background in theory. :)
 
I've always regretted giving up on the music school. Back then, I felt that my classical guitar teacher was exaggerating my potential. I felt like a fraud because I'd been playing by ear "for years", so it seemed normal to me that I'd progress quickly.
 
This impression I had that I'd somehow cheated lead me to really belittle my abilities, and what I had learned, to the point where before I picked up the theory book, I was actually scared that I wouldn't be able to learn. But I went ahead and I started to realize that I'd probably learned more than I remembered and gave myself credit for.
 
When I dropped out of music school, I was playing in a band with a bunch of old beatniks - standard stuff from The Real Book and such. Their approach seemed to work for me - I didn't really need to read music, only to follow basic charts w/ chord names. I knew how to work out chords and figure out all the embellishments and 5th and 7th and all. I figured that that was enough, and it was paying more than I ever could have hoped, so...

TCB - Tea, Cats, Books...
#15
craigb
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 41704
  • Joined: 2009/01/28 23:13:04
  • Location: The Pacific Northwestshire
  • Status: offline
Re: Music Theory makes much more sense in english... 2014/06/26 00:31:08 (permalink)
Without music theory, the following isn't as funny.
 

An Upscale Bar
C, E-flat and G entered a bar.
The bartender said, "Sorry, I don't serve minors."
The E-flat left and the C and G had an open fifth between them. After a few drinks, the fifth was diminished and the G was out flat.
An F entered and tried to augment the situation but was not sharp enough.
A D entered and excused himself to the bathroom, saying, "I'll just be a second."
An A entered but the bartender wasn't convinced that this relative of C was not a minor.
Then the bartender noticed a B-flat hiding at the end of the bar. "Get out, right now!" he exclaimed. "You're the seventh minor I've found in this bar tonight."
The next night the E-flat returned to the bar in a 3-piece suit.
The bartender said, "You're looking sharp tonight. This could be a major development."
This was the case, when the E-flat took off the suit and everything else to stand there au natural.
Eventually, the C sobered up and realized in horror that he was under a rest.
He was brought to trial, found guilty of contributing to the diminution of a minor, and was sentenced to ten years of D.S. without the possibility of a Coda.
On appeal, he was found innocent of any wrongdoing, even accidental, because the accusation was bassless.
The bartender decided he needed a rest -- and closed the bar.

 
Time for all of you to head over to Beyond My DAW!
#16
kennywtelejazz
Max Output Level: -3.5 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 7151
  • Joined: 2005/10/22 06:27:02
  • Location: The Planet Tele..X..
  • Status: offline
Re: Music Theory makes much more sense in english... 2014/06/26 02:46:49 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Rain 2014/06/26 13:06:43
Rain
kennywtelejazz
I have a very strong background in Music Theory & Ear Training …..
FWIW ..I feel it is much more important than what type of gear I happen to use 
a lot of people don't realize that they are shortchanging them selfs by not learning Music Theory ….
when you start to understand a little about music theory , you can take what you know and recycle every thing in new and interesting combinations of musical ideas …
that alone makes it with the effort 
 
Kenny
 




Having heard you play, I was pretty sure that you had a solid background in theory. :)
 
I've always regretted giving up on the music school. Back then, I felt that my classical guitar teacher was exaggerating my potential. I felt like a fraud because I'd been playing by ear "for years", so it seemed normal to me that I'd progress quickly.
 
This impression I had that I'd somehow cheated lead me to really belittle my abilities, and what I had learned, to the point where before I picked up the theory book, I was actually scared that I wouldn't be able to learn. But I went ahead and I started to realize that I'd probably learned more than I remembered and gave myself credit for.
 
When I dropped out of music school, I was playing in a band with a bunch of old beatniks - standard stuff from The Real Book and such. Their approach seemed to work for me - I didn't really need to read music, only to follow basic charts w/ chord names. I knew how to work out chords and figure out all the embellishments and 5th and 7th and all. I figured that that was enough, and it was paying more than I ever could have hoped, so...




thanks Rain, 
yes , I sort of keep that card pretty close to the vest ….
speaking from P E….it is my humble opinion that a lot of times people (including myself ) have the tendency to overcomplicate music and music theory...
one of the most important things I have found out for myself for learning new things involving music has been to just listen with my full concentration and learn to recognize what I'm hearing …this is a skill  that is accumulative ...
I know that you are a smart guy , I know this from how you express yourself  in the way you write (English )
music is no different … a lot of music is learning to recognize and recall what you already know .
Kenny

                   
Oh Yeah , Life is Good .
The internet is nothing more than a glorified real time cartoon we all star in.
I play a "Gibson " R 8 Les Paul Cherry Sunburst .
The Love of my Life is an American Bulldog Named Duke . I'm currently running Cakewalk By BandLab as my DAW .
 
https://soundcloud.com/guitarist-kenny-wilson
 
https://www.youtube.com/user/Kennywtelejazz/videos?view=0&sort=dd&shelf_id=1
 
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=427899



#17
kennywtelejazz
Max Output Level: -3.5 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 7151
  • Joined: 2005/10/22 06:27:02
  • Location: The Planet Tele..X..
  • Status: offline
Re: Music Theory makes much more sense in english... 2014/06/27 16:10:16 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Rain 2014/06/27 22:01:32
Here you go Rain ,
 
take a look at these free online courses 
 
Fundamentals of Music Theory 
 
https://www.coursera.org/course/musictheory
 
Developing Your Musicianship
 
https://www.coursera.org/course/musicianship
 
Kenny
 

                   
Oh Yeah , Life is Good .
The internet is nothing more than a glorified real time cartoon we all star in.
I play a "Gibson " R 8 Les Paul Cherry Sunburst .
The Love of my Life is an American Bulldog Named Duke . I'm currently running Cakewalk By BandLab as my DAW .
 
https://soundcloud.com/guitarist-kenny-wilson
 
https://www.youtube.com/user/Kennywtelejazz/videos?view=0&sort=dd&shelf_id=1
 
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=427899



#18
Rain
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 9736
  • Joined: 2003/11/07 05:10:12
  • Location: Las Vegas
  • Status: offline
Re: Music Theory makes much more sense in english... 2014/06/27 22:07:15 (permalink)
Thanks, Kenny. I'll check them out! :)

TCB - Tea, Cats, Books...
#19
craigb
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 41704
  • Joined: 2009/01/28 23:13:04
  • Location: The Pacific Northwestshire
  • Status: offline
Re: Music Theory makes much more sense in english... 2014/06/27 22:18:18 (permalink)
Hey!  Even I can afford these courses!  

 
Time for all of you to head over to Beyond My DAW!
#20
Moshkiae
Max Output Level: -14 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 6111
  • Joined: 2009/04/27 10:26:25
  • Status: offline
Re: Music Theory makes much more sense in english... 2014/06/29 11:13:42 (permalink)
sharke
...
But for the most part, when I'm writing music at the computer I have absolutely no concept whatsoever of what notes I'm writing or what chords they make up. If I play a part on the keyboard, it's been picked out by ear without any theory behind it whatsoever.
...



I knew I was not the only one!
 
Weird is that I can find most of the notes/chords I created, although I'm now at a point that recreating the sound on the Jupiter software is hard, and I have to learn to save it more often. Because trying to "redo" it from sscratch is nearly impossible, or I don't know/understand the synthesizer that well, and am too tied up to the sound itself, not its mechanics!
post edited by Moshkiae - 2014/06/29 11:36:27

As a wise Guy once stated from his holy chapala ... none of the hits, none of the time ... prevents you from becoming just another turkey in the middle of all the other turkeys! 
  
#21
Jump to:
© 2025 APG vNext Commercial Version 5.1