djwayne
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Must have better notation to compete...
Just been reading on other forums about daws, comparing Sonar to Cubase, in the notation department, Cubase wins. I hate to say it but if Sonar wants to compete, they are going to have to upgrade the notation capabilities. That's just what other people are saying.
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daveny5
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Re:Must have better notation to compete...
2013/06/03 22:20:04
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That's just what other people are saying. No its not. Although I am interested in improved notation, most people are not. If you need better notation, get Finale or Sibelius. Sonar cannot be all things to all people. At least not for $400.
Dave Computer: Intel i7, ASROCK H170M, 16GB/5TB+, Windows 10 Pro 64-bit, Sonar Platinum, TASCAM US-16x08, Cakewalk UM-3G MIDI I/F Instruments: SL-880 Keyboard controller, Korg 05R/W, Korg N1R, KORG Wavestation EX Axes: Fender Stratocaster, Line6 Variax 300, Ovation Acoustic, Takamine Nylon Acoustic, Behringer GX212 amp, Shure SM-58 mic, Rode NT1 condenser mic. Outboard: Mackie 1402-VLZ mixer, TC Helicon VoiceLive 2, Digitech Vocalist WS EX, PODXTLive, various stompboxes and stuff. Controllers: Korg nanoKONTROL, Wacom Bamboo Touchpad
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mudgel
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Re:Must have better notation to compete...
2013/06/03 22:20:19
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Despite the frequent calls for better notation by a vocal minority, Sonar seems to be doing quite well. At least thats the impression we can infer from Cakewalks still not having made any changes for the better in more than a decade.
Mike V. (MUDGEL) STUDIO: Win 10 Pro x64, SPlat & CbB x64, PC: ASUS Z370-A, INTEL i7 8700k, 32GIG DDR4 2400, OC 4.7Ghz. Storage: 7 TB SATA III, 750GiG SSD & Samsung 500 Gig 960 EVO NVMe M.2. Monitors: Adam A7X, JBL 10” Sub. Audio I/O & DSP Server: DIGIGRID IOS & IOX. Screen: Raven MTi + 43" HD 4K TV Monitor. Keyboard Controller: Native Instruments Komplete Kontrol S88.
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sethmopod
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Re:Must have better notation to compete...
2013/06/03 23:08:06
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Finale is a crappy sequencer. Sonar's notation is basic at best. I use them side by side all the time with great results.
Seth
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scook
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Re:Must have better notation to compete...
2013/06/03 23:33:56
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Demands for VST3 can't be far behind
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mmorgan
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Re:Must have better notation to compete...
2013/06/03 23:45:46
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Demands for VST3 can't be far behind That made me laugh.
Mike Win8(64), Sonar X3e(64) w/ RME Fireface UFX.
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Jimbo 88
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Re:Must have better notation to compete...
2013/06/04 00:08:04
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you can argue all day long how many people are interested in notation.
The fact is Sonar is going to loose many users in the near future over this issue. There are lots of shifting sands on the way.
Competition is growing, technology is going to change and effect of ignoring the medium of communicating music is going to be interesting.
Cakewalk By Bandlab Cubase 9.5 Pro Windows 7 64 Bit Core i7-8700 32 Gig Ram 3.20ghz RME Fireface 400 Audio Card Behringer FCA 1616 Sweetwater Creation Station
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vintagevibe
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Re:Must have better notation to compete...
2013/06/04 01:01:04
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daveny5
That's just what other people are saying.
No its not. Although I am interested in improved notation, most people are not. If you need better notation, get Finale or Sibelius. Sonar cannot be all things to all people. At least not for $400.
You have absolutely no clue what the purpose of a notation function in a DAW is for. Otherwise you wouldn't make the ridiculous assumption that Finale or Sibelius could fill that function.
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vintagevibe
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Re:Must have better notation to compete...
2013/06/04 01:03:39
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djwayne
Just been reading on other forums about daws, comparing Sonar to Cubase, in the notation department, Cubase wins. I hate to say it but if Sonar wants to compete, they are going to have to upgrade the notation capabilities. That's just what other people are saying.
As far as notation Cubase doesn't win ... it completely demolishes Sonar. That's why I'm switching. Cakewalk has let the staff view fester for 15 years and refuses to implement even the slightest improvements.
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noynekker
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Re:Must have better notation to compete...
2013/06/04 01:10:30
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OKAY . . . okay . . I'll download the Cubase demo to see what all the buzz is about regarding their fantastic notation.
I'm sure the next Cakewalk Sonar version will have many new amazing features, but I will be most disappointed if there is no improvement to their Staff notation.
Not everyone uses notation, but it is important to me, use it frequently.
May the DAW wars benefit us all.
Mudgel . . . has it really been a decade since there were notation improvements ? 2003 ?
Cakewalk by Bandlab, Cubase, RME Babyface Pro, Intel i7 3770K @3.5Ghz, Asus P8Z77-VPro/Thunderbolt, 32GB DDR3 RAM, GeForce GTX 660 Ti, 250 GB OS SSD, 2TB HDD samples, Win 10 Pro 64 bit, backed up by Macrium Reflect, Novation Impulse 61 Midi Key Controller, Tannoy Active Near Field Monitors, Guitars by Vantage, Gibson, Yamaki and Ovation.
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vintagevibe
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Re:Must have better notation to compete...
2013/06/04 01:30:51
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noynekker
I'm sure the next Cakewalk Sonar version will have many new amazing features, but I will be most disappointed if there is no improvement to their Staff notation.
Prepare to be disappointed.
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Guitarpima
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Re:Must have better notation to compete...
2013/06/04 08:37:06
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If this keeps up I hope the next version of Sonar will include a popcorn maker. Those air poppers with the butter well are quite nice!
Notation, the original DAW. Everything else is just rote. We are who we are and no more than another. Humans, you people are crazy. Win 7 x64 X2 Intel DX58SO, Intel i7 920 2.66ghz 12gb DDR3 ASUS ATI EAH5750 650w PSU 4x WD HDs 320gb DVD, DVD RW Eleven Rack, KRK Rokit 8s and 10s sub
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djwayne
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Re:Must have better notation to compete...
2013/06/04 10:54:31
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vintagevibe
djwayne
Just been reading on other forums about daws, comparing Sonar to Cubase, in the notation department, Cubase wins. I hate to say it but if Sonar wants to compete, they are going to have to upgrade the notation capabilities. That's just what other people are saying.
As far as notation Cubase doesn't win ... it completely demolishes Sonar. That's why I'm switching. Cakewalk has let the staff view fester for 15 years and refuses to implement even the slightest improvements.
Yes this is what I'm reading on other forums. I'm hoping X3 will have at least some improvements. I know I was a member of the " I don't care about notation" camp for a long time, but I can see now where it would come in handy to have. Anytime I mention Sonar on other forums, I get beat down with the notation features. I'd like to see Sonar become more successful than it already is, and having a quality notation section seems to be the next logical step.
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pbognar
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Re:Must have better notation to compete...
2013/06/04 14:38:38
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vintagevibe
noynekker
I'm sure the next Cakewalk Sonar version will have many new amazing features, but I will be most disappointed if there is no improvement to their Staff notation.
Prepare to be disappointed.
I would have to agree with Vintagevibe on this one. It seems to me that there is no way major improvments can or will be made in the Staff View. The most we can hope for is obvious behavior and integration fixes.
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daveny5
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Re:Must have better notation to compete...
2013/06/04 15:05:49
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vintagevibe
daveny5
That's just what other people are saying.
No its not. Although I am interested in improved notation, most people are not. If you need better notation, get Finale or Sibelius. Sonar cannot be all things to all people. At least not for $400.
You have absolutely no clue what the purpose of a notation function in a DAW is for. Otherwise you wouldn't make the ridiculous assumption that Finale or Sibelius could fill that function.
I was doing notation on a computer (and on paper before that) probably before you were born. 
Dave Computer: Intel i7, ASROCK H170M, 16GB/5TB+, Windows 10 Pro 64-bit, Sonar Platinum, TASCAM US-16x08, Cakewalk UM-3G MIDI I/F Instruments: SL-880 Keyboard controller, Korg 05R/W, Korg N1R, KORG Wavestation EX Axes: Fender Stratocaster, Line6 Variax 300, Ovation Acoustic, Takamine Nylon Acoustic, Behringer GX212 amp, Shure SM-58 mic, Rode NT1 condenser mic. Outboard: Mackie 1402-VLZ mixer, TC Helicon VoiceLive 2, Digitech Vocalist WS EX, PODXTLive, various stompboxes and stuff. Controllers: Korg nanoKONTROL, Wacom Bamboo Touchpad
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Elffin
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Re:Must have better notation to compete...
2013/06/04 15:22:12
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I've given up on waiting for notation improvements... so I havn't upgraded to X2 since it doesn't give me what I need.
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jsg
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Re:Must have better notation to compete...
2013/06/04 15:32:16
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daveny5
That's just what other people are saying.
No its not. Although I am interested in improved notation, most people are not. If you need better notation, get Finale or Sibelius. Sonar cannot be all things to all people. At least not for $400.
You, like so many others, do not fully understand what a DAW's notation editor is for. It is NOT for producing printed, published-quality scores, not by a long shot. It IS for MIDI inputting and editing, which is for production purposes, not score-creation purposes. It is true that Cubase's and DP's notation editors are a little better than Sonar's, but not by much. For example, DP's score editor also does not display dotted triplets correctly. What Sonar has that no other DAW to my knowledge has, is the ability to lock views and have multiple staff view open at the same time, each with different instruments on it. For composers who work as I do, this is an amazing time-saver, as one doesn't have to keep selecting and re-selecting which instruments to work on. X2 even made this better by using docked/locked views. With DAWs, the grass is always greener on the other side. Though the Cubase score editor does have more features than Sonar, it is very clunky and complicated, far more complicated than Sibelius, which is an actual notation program! In my opinion, Cakewalk need only add support for 64th notes, dotted and tied triplets, and 32nd note triplets and then it will be a full-fledged MIDI inputting and editing tool. Keep in mind that even though Sonar X2 doesn't display these types of notation situations correctly, it plays them back correctly and accurately, so I've learned to live with the limitations as they don't affect the accuracy of MIDI playback and, since I create a final score in Sibelius, it doesn't impact how my scores look either. In a perfect world things would be different, but that's not the world we live in. JG www.jerrygerber.com
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pbognar
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Re:Must have better notation to compete...
2013/06/04 16:18:04
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Elffin
I've given up on waiting for notation improvements... so I havn't upgraded to X2 since it doesn't give me what I need.
jsg
daveny5
That's just what other people are saying.
No its not. Although I am interested in improved notation, most people are not. If you need better notation, get Finale or Sibelius. Sonar cannot be all things to all people. At least not for $400.
You, like so many others, do not fully understand what a DAW's notation editor is for. It is NOT for producing printed, published-quality scores, not by a long shot. It IS for MIDI inputting and editing, which is for production purposes, not score-creation purposes. It is true that Cubase's and DP's notation editors are a little better than Sonar's, but not by much. For example, DP's score editor also does not display dotted triplets correctly. What Sonar has that no other DAW to my knowledge has, is the ability to lock views and have multiple staff view open at the same time, each with different instruments on it. For composers who work as I do, this is an amazing time-saver, as one doesn't have to keep selecting and re-selecting which instruments to work on. X2 even made this better by using docked/locked views.
With DAWs, the grass is always greener on the other side. Though the Cubase score editor does have more features than Sonar, it is very clunky and complicated, far more complicated than Sibelius, which is an actual notation program! In my opinion, Cakewalk need only add support for 64th notes, dotted and tied triplets, and 32nd note triplets and then it will be a full-fledged MIDI inputting and editing tool. Keep in mind that even though Sonar X2 doesn't display these types of notation situations correctly, it plays them back correctly and accurately, so I've learned to live with the limitations as they don't affect the accuracy of MIDI playback and, since I create a final score in Sibelius, it doesn't impact how my scores look either.
In a perfect world things would be different, but that's not the world we live in.
JG
www.jerrygerber.com
+100 Tied triplets are supported, but they must be in groups of 3, with no embedded rests. Removal of that limitation would be welcome.
post edited by pbognar - 2013/06/04 16:50:25
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jsg
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Re:Must have better notation to compete...
2013/06/04 18:28:01
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+100 Tied triplets are supported, but they must be in groups of 3, with no embedded rests. Removal of that limitation would be welcome. Tied triplets play back correctly (in Sonar) but do not display correctly in the staff view. If you would like proof, enter two sets of eighth note triplets. Delete the 1st note of the 2nd group and tie the 3rd note of the first group to the first note of the second group by doubling its length, from 160 ticks to 320 ticks (assuming a timebase of 420 ticks per quarter note). You will see an extra beam that should not be there, and you will also see dotted notes, which are also incorrect. What it should look like is simply two groups of eighth note triplets, with a tie between the last note of the 1st group and the 1st note of the 2nd group. JG www.jerrygerber.com
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wienryk
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Re:Must have better notation to compete...
2013/06/04 20:04:07
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Sonar is a sequencer and notation is only sort of additional possibility. For really notation you have to use notation software. However notation should be updated to improve editing midi with notation. I like to edit with regular notation, but some operations are impossible to do, so I have to change to PRV, which sometimes is inconvenient.
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pbognar
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Re:Must have better notation to compete...
2013/06/04 21:43:31
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Ok, for 1023rd time, those of us who would like improvements in the Staff View are not expecting Sonar to print publishing quality notation.
Please see Jerry Gerber's post #17.
This should be a sticky at the top of the forum or in some FAQ document.
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mudgel
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Re:Must have better notation to compete...
2013/06/04 22:41:12
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noynekker
Mudgel . . . has it really been a decade since there were notation improvements ? 2003 ?
2003 makes it around SONAR 3 time which is when I upgraded from Cakewalk Version 8 to the newer SONAR format. Other than some GUI changes I don't think there have been any functional enhancements since that time. In fact there seems little difference between the Cakewalk versions of the nineties to todays' X2a. Actually I'd say that with every iteration since those days, more bugs have crept in. I got into cakewalk software because I could use a staff view to enter notes for those instruments I couldn't play, rather than using a controller keyboard to play the parts in. Today I find the staff view a very kludgey way to enter notes as it hasn't kept pace with all the other technological advancements in SONAR and some functions are no longer present. When I do need to enter notes via a staff I use Notion 4 then import the info into SONAR. working back the other way if I need to produce a score or some basic charts I export from SONAR back to Notion and edit the score there.
Mike V. (MUDGEL) STUDIO: Win 10 Pro x64, SPlat & CbB x64, PC: ASUS Z370-A, INTEL i7 8700k, 32GIG DDR4 2400, OC 4.7Ghz. Storage: 7 TB SATA III, 750GiG SSD & Samsung 500 Gig 960 EVO NVMe M.2. Monitors: Adam A7X, JBL 10” Sub. Audio I/O & DSP Server: DIGIGRID IOS & IOX. Screen: Raven MTi + 43" HD 4K TV Monitor. Keyboard Controller: Native Instruments Komplete Kontrol S88.
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vintagevibe
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Re:Must have better notation to compete...
2013/06/05 14:25:10
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It is true that Cubase's and DP's notation editors are a little better than Sonar's, but not by much."http://www.jerrygerber.com" www.jerrygerber.com</a></p> Have you ever used Cubase? The Score view has 176 pages in the manual. I have Sibelius 7 and Notion 4 and from what I've seen so far Cubase 7 is at least on par with Notion 4. There is no comparison between Cubase 7's scoring and Sonars.
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