I'm always reminded of the night my mother died. I was sitting on my bed, head in hands, crying my heart out when after a little while I "felt" as if something had just passed over me and lifted a great weight from my shoulders. I was still sad, but comforted somehow.
 
Most people I ever told this story to tell me that it was the spirit of my mother, comforting me. And that is, of course, based on age old popular beliefs - that one has a soul, which is immortal and leaves the body after death and can even interact with humans.
 
At one point, I stopped telling the story because I realized that I was actually comforting them in a series of beliefs which they accepted as is, without question - because a disciplined intellect is a rare thing and lots of people are happy to just bump from one thing to another w/o ever realizing that their beliefs are mutually exclusive.
 
To me, my experience, as unique as it appeared on the spot, probably wasn't. The circumstances made it stand out. Similar events might have happened thousands of time without being linked to such a unique dramatic event to exaggerate their importance. My grief more than likely clouded my judgement and distorted my perceptions. The physical sensation could have a totally physical origin, a chemical one, a psychological one... There were tons of possible rational explanations. 
 
Yet, people jumped on the most unlikely one as the simplest most obvious explanation. And it comforted them in their belief and gave them another "proof" that there is life after death. Their need to believe took what it needed from my experience - because it was their strongest, most demanding need. All other needs yielded to that stronger one. Worst - had they let another instinct observe my experience first, it might have spoiled the whole thing for them. 
 
As for I, well... Who wouldn't like to think that they'll meet their beloved mother again? But I can't discard all the other far more likely explanations in favour of that. The thought of meeting her again is a sweet one, but so is the thought of never having to worry about money or world peace or divine justice. It's a dream, a simple way to create a balance and to reset the counters. Just like sleeping.
 
Those things can give you courage, but, imo, it would be totally irresponsible to give them priority on reality, and to talk of them as if they were some sort of superior knowledge. They aren't. They're just comforting. But you might as well spend your life in the foetal position sucking your thumb.

Steven Weinberg says it much better than me: “Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.”
 
-1

yorolpal
And you still haven't answered my question, ol pal.

At least, right now he is only giving - 1, showing that he disagrees I guess. 
 
Anyone who place beliefs before actual knowledge and facts is 100% free to do so - but he has no leg to stand on in a debate. The problem is that some of those folks believe that their irrationality gives them authority and try to participate in discussions. They renounce logic and then try to give us a lesson about how logical that is.
 
Just like their prophets who deprived themselves of everything, isolated themselves from others and spent days and weeks under the burning desert sun for extended periods... Eventually, divine knowledge hit them. They heard voices. Surely they must have been wise men.

 
But then again, simply stating "god did it" doesn't tax the intellect too much does it
 
Bless.

In all this debate, the final outcome is or should be in pursuing in finding the "truth". The only Truth is from God.......the only good can come from God. For liberals, the ultimate good is their liberty. A false belief as liberty is not only a foundation for truth, but is also a foundation for lies. Ultimate truth and ultimate good can only come from Almighty God.
 
The bottom line is there are 2 only forces that govern all of us......either from God or from the Devil. Form the very beginning, it will and has ALWAYS been a battle between God & the devil. Either you're with God or you're against Him. The magnificence of God is in giving us all a free will to choose. So, all of you non-believers, atheists, agnostics, idolaters, or whatever you define yourselves to be have already made a choice.
 
Regarding why the modern world is putting all this "faith" in science, I'm going to go into this indepth as that's the only way I know how to explain, please be patient and excuse the lenghtiness.
 
With all the technological advancements of so called "modern science", scientists to this day, still can't explain how the world began. Big Bang theory you say? out of nothing, there was a big explosion? Doesn't make sense even to my ignorant and little mind. If there's nothing, how can it go BANG and explode?
God created the world in 6 days, created it in perfect order, in perfect harmony, and established the order of the universe. The first 3 days of creation was the main things, and the next 3 were the "ornamentation" days (so to speak) in making everything beautiful. He made the earth the center of the universe and sent His only Son to atone for our countless sins to this center.
 
Why is it that God decided that should be created in 6 days and the 7th a day of rest?......and decided there should be 7 virtues, 7 sacraments, 7 gifts of the Holy Ghost? these things are all related......while the devil created 7 capital sins. All of these things are not by accident. From His infinite love for all us, God created an order and structure for all of us to follow so that we could be united with Him in Heaven. Of course, man has been turning away from God ever since, and the world is now in this deplorable state.
 
How did this state come about? How did the devil destroy this perfect order that God had created?
 
During the early part of the 1600's, there's a very essential part in history that happened to take place which has dramatically influenced our thinking of today (400 years later).
Being a strong proponent that was against God and the Catholic Church, Galileo brought in this new kind of heretical thought process. Although the power of science is only from God, Galileo recognized that there is power of modern science. He wanted to undermine and rip at the foundation of the Catholic Faith, thus started the modern scientific revolution (more in lines of a demonic revolution). Without this revolution taking place, we could not be where we are here in 2013. Galileo stated that the earth is not the center of the universe and that the sun is at the center of the universe. He recognized that the power of science is not in the science itself, but rather gaining the power of a scientist saying it's true, it will be true. Having all his scientific equipment at hand (i.e. "I have a telescope, you don't, I am a scientist, you're not, I'm now an authority, you're not etc...)  with the plans of justifying "his" findings in order of disapproving known truth of nature, reason, and common sense......and now has the power to replace God!!! Just look at the world today, don't we seamlessly enjoy using "modern science" as a replacement God. Just look at how many "pro modern science" advocates are within these 7 pages............look at how we all view scientists in general........don't we look at them as "the experts"?, don't we believe in what they say as the "gospel" truth?, don't we adore them?, don't we accept all that they say?........do we ever question them? NO. We only question God, we only question the Church, but we never question the scientist.
 
It's true that we must follow authority, but we must follow authority that doesn't violate the truth of nature, that doesn't violate common sense and the use of reason. The only authority that does not violate the truth of nature/common sense, is the Catholic Church (not this modern catastrophy that Vatican II has created, but rather the One True Catholic Church).
The sad fact is during these last 400 years, the Catholic Church has slowly been stepping away from this authority, and now modern science has practically replaced God. The Church has been slowly handing this authority to the State, handing it over to the scientists, handing it over to the Dr.'s, handing it over to the modern world, all to the result of misery around us.
Evolution and modern science are very crucial and important things to the devil, likewise Galileo was also very important to the devil. This was/is a great avenue to destroy the foundations of the Catholic Faith.
 
St. Thomas tells us that we should not believe that Jesus Christ is God unless there are motives for belief......there needs to be evidence.....there needs to be proof. What is this proof? Miracles......miracles! Not only were there miracles 2000 years ago, but there continued to be hundreds and thousands of miracles that took place during the past 2000 years (i.e the miracle of the sun in Fatima on 13 October 1917 in which 30,000 - 100,000 people attended). We human beings are given reason to see what's in front of us (St. Thomas calls it common sense) and common sense is infallible.....(i.e. you see the rain raining outside, you know it's really raining). Modern science has been working hard to remove this human reason, common sense, and truth of nature.....all the things created by God.    

Rain
Funny because I came this close to posting that same Weinberg quote yesterday.
So I guess that would be: -1 + 1 + 1 = 1
 

Which, as I've long suspected, proves beyond doubt the existence of Zeus.
 
Or Loki.
 
Or is it Nephthys.
 
 

SteveStrummerUK

Rain
Funny because I came this close to posting that same Weinberg quote yesterday.
So I guess that would be: -1 + 1 + 1 = 1
 

Which, as I've long suspected, proves beyond doubt the existence of Zeus.
 
Or Loki.
 
Or is it Nephthys.
 
 

 
Actually, Zeus and greek mythology makes a whole lot more sense to me than the hebrew one and its shamelessly bastardized/recycled vulgar adaptations.
 
That being said, if I had to deal w/ Zeus believers who want to persecute people for any reason which in fact is none of their frickin business and place their religion and blind faith before simple empathy, I'd probably dislike it just as much.

Ben...er...you don't by any chance live in a small one room cabin in the remotest part of, say, Idaho...or maybe just your parent's basement do you? It's just that you sorta remind me of a couple of guys I know. Just curious.

PS: if I get to choose I pick Idolator...I've always liked the sound of that one. Or better yet...The Idolorator!! Yea...that's it.

PPS: it used to be "The Fornicator" and I ain't lyin when I tell ya I earned that there name fair and square...I was a mighty no holds barred fornicatin machine. But, alas, my ol fornicatin tool has succumbed to both age and the side effects of blood pressure meds...so best to move on over to The Idolorator. Just an FYI.

Not to mention the scores of nearly identical "messiah" stories (I.e. virgin birth, son of god made flesh, etc...) from other religions that fell by the wayside (Constantine NOT promoting them???...poor things) that PRECEDE ol JC and his bunch. In point of fact Christianity would probably have fallen by the wayside too without ol Constantine's help.

And from the bottom of my atheist heart, I'll tell you this Paul: I find real beauty and something quite sublime about certain passages of the scriptures. Things to ponder. The Mathew verse I quoted above is one of them.
 
"And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men....when thou prayest, enter into thy closet and when thou has shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret...."
 
One needs not believe in God to appreciate the admirable quality of the conviction expressed in that verse - the aspiration and the ability to forge such ideal is sublime, really. Pray in SECRET!!! Confident that God hears you and that there need to be no other witness - He will provide... 
 
That's the real "personal relation with Jesus" people keep bragging about, right there...
 
Doesn't make it any more true than the best passages of plays by Shakespeare or Racine or more enlightening than studying myths and beliefs of other cultures. Even in the most primitive forms of faith, one can find a stepping stone for reflexion, be it only to experience how others understand life. 
 

And without devolving into, "here is his shoe! We must follow the shoe!" The sermon on the mount, after all, had some good moments. A little windy....a little reachy perhaps...but still, some good moments.

backwoods
Woohoo!!!! Rain's moved onto the New Testament!!! 

Judging from your posts, I'm tempted to believe that I know far more about both the Old and the New Testament than you do.
 
But how about you argue with your esteemed christian fellow, sir BigBen - you both seem to be in disagreement as to the importance of the OT and some particularly fundamental aspects of your faith.

You know, the more I look at it the clearer the hypocrisy is...
 
At one point, the OP rejoiced to "learn" there were other christians on board. Right off the top of my head I could name you at least a dozen regulars who have expressed their beliefs literally and/or by sending prayers (because, as you guess, atheists don't tell people they'll pray for them).
 
Furthermore, if he'd only took time to visit the links provided in their signatures, he'd have realized that many folks have expressed their faith through songs. The song forum is also filled with christian music (and there's NOTHING wrong with that).
 
There's also many, many folks who constantly mention working the PA at church and playing during the sunday mass. Since most of those folks are here in the US, I would assume that they're not talking about a buddhist temple.
 
But it's that one statement that conveys the hypocrisy even better:
 
"Over 2000 years of that book being ridiculed, studied, debated, murdered over, scrutinized in side out. It still exists. Is there any book or writing even close to the abuse the Bible has taken? How does that book keep on going and going. Jesus said things of this world will die out but His Words will live forever. "
 
Little does it seem to matter that for the biggest part of those 2000 years, the Bible and its believers were actually not on the receiving end. They persecuted, they burned, they tortured, stole, raped, killed, they slowed down the progress of all mankind by censoring science and imposing a reign of terror, they justified the worst atrocities - and still do...
 
And yet, the OP still finds it amazing that the book lived on. Considering the complete lack of logical reasoning in most of his arguments and how he just ignore facts and make blanket statements, it isn't hard to imagine that believers managed to believe in spite of every evidence.
 
The millions who actually did give up their beliefs in the face of evidences are obviously to be ignored. As long as there's even just two fools out there with a Bible, Paul can technically believe that the word of God is the eternal truth...
 
 

backwoods
Hehe- Pinky and the Brain
 
For what it is worth- Catholicism is not incompatible with science. Read a book.

-1
 
Read your Bible - No Adam and Eve no need for Messiah, no Christ no new testament. Ask your Christian pal Big Ben... or people from one of the other 39 999 denomination of christianity who all think that they alone have the right interpretation of the same schizophrenic tale.
 
The Bible isn't incompatible with some science. For exemple, it isn't incompatible with gravity - I'll give you that. But then again, Star Wars isn't incompatible w/ some science either.
 
 Partial truth, and no proof of it's veracity. 
 
 
But it's just a flesh wound, ain't it?
 

 

 
I've never managed to quite get my head around the whole 'god is love' shtick.
 
How can anyone genuinely 'love' an entity that forces you to love it, else suffer eternal torture.
 
An entity that furthermore tells you how it should be worshipped, that tells you what to think, what to wear, what you can eat, who you can have sex with.
 
Even how much of your penis should be sliced off. In any other walk of civilised life, if a perfect stranger so much as touched a child, you'd expect that person to answer to a court of law. But some of you willingly allow your baby son's genitals to be butchered - and the poor little mites don't even get a choice in the matter.
 
And don't get me started on female circumcision, rightly referred to as female genital mutilation.
 
What on earth is wrong with people who think, not only that this abhorrent practice is alright, but that a loving god requires it.
 
Wake up for goodness sake, none of this is normal.