My X1 vs 8.5 - Mouse vs Keyboard theory

I have a theory that a big reason some people don't like X1 as much as 8.5 is that X1 has shifted more towards a 'keyboard' person as opposed to a 'mouse' person. - even if they don't realise that.

So to see if there's any thing in that theory or if I'm talking complete BS how about answering these two questions and having a completely non-scientific straw poll?

Do you overall prefer X1 or 8.5?

Do you prefer using mouse or keyboard?


I'm going with X1 & Keyboard

As I posted in the thread where you first posited your theory:

I'm a heavy keyboard user and if I can avoid a mouse I will always choose that route - I just find it quicker to have a full grasp on keyboard command combinations in any program I use.  If you learn to use the keyboard (it's not like the standard QWERTY keyboard has changed much over the years), you can achieve speeds within most programs that are simply not possible with a mouse and menus, buttons, and such.  While a mouse is a necessity for some operations, the less I need to interact with it, the better. 

Thinking further about the topic of keyboard vs. mouse, I probably really on keyboard commands over mouse hunting and pecking in about 85 - 90% of my computer based interactions, only relying on the mouse when it is required for accessing some function.

Thankfully when I was very young, my mother sat me down at a typewriter with the intent that I would know how to touch type and not be a hunt and peck typist like my father :)  I don't need to look down at the keyboard while I work in Sonar or any other program - I just need to take the time to learn how the program interacts with the keyboard.  Has it taken a little extra time to relearn the X1 combinations - perhaps, but in the end I find it an exercise with large rewards.  I find the new UI to be more logical for my way of working than previous implementations, but as always, your mileage may vary.

I WAS a mouse man in 8.5, but after messing with X1 for all this time, and watching the fantastic videos that Groove3 created, I have been really focusing on the keyboard shortcuts.  Those videos really opened my eyes to the power of the keyboard shortcut, and now I am a keyboard convert. 

This doesn't really help your survey, but I just had to share....

Generally, when I start with an app, I use the mouse; however, you do know that it's a difficult thing to have to fight with (whether it takes a ball or batteries)

I've been exposed to both types of mice (many have) and while it was just ridiculous fighting to get the cursur to move -- noly to have to open the mouse to mess with the ball and rollers, then if nothing still worked ...

however, wireless mice have their issues, too. 

When I got my comp (keyboard/mouse incl.) I thought something was wrong immediately as I had to use it somewhat to setup my Win7 OS. I ended up calling a technician and after trying out some things, it had come down to "Did you turn on the receiver on the bottom of the mouse?" Imagine how freaking stupid I felt; however, it's a habit of mine to ask for help even for something so simple despite feeling like a you-know-what later.

I do know that other things could go wrong besides the batteries dying though.

On the issue of software navigation, I use the mouse as stated before, but I also use the keyboard. (Why learn keystroke combos if you aren't going to use them - not even at the most rare occasion)?

It's not just music apps, but apps or just navigating around your computer in general. What if my mouse can no longer be used? I'd get another, sure; however, in the meantime, I'm not gonna not use the keyboard if it can get me to the same places or do the same things as a few mouse clicks would. I can just as easily get around docs and webpages using the Tab (forwards) & Shift + Tab (backwards) shortcuts. Takes longer, but if it gets me there.

My keyboard has programmable Function Keys - a keystroke or combo, opens any program I wish. Of course, double-click with the mouse is easier and faster especially if you don't want to memorize keystrokes. Yet, I still open some programs - the ones I use most often - with keystrokes. For example: The MS Office apps are opened with "Alt + the first letter of the corresponding program: Alt + W  is Word; Alt + X is Excel; Alt M is Mixcraft. What do you think I'll have Alt + S open?

Even inside those apps, functions like Copy/Paste; Open/Save/Print, are accessed using keyboard shortcuts.

The same is true in the DaW world, and the Bakers figured that since a majority uses keystrokes outside said world, that it would be great to use it inside the world. Obviously, your basic shortcuts which are universal no matter if you're in or out of the realm. Yet, with the idea as with my Function Keys example: "L" and all associated = loop functions; "Q" for quantizing, etc ...

Lastly, I think in general, whatever one is doing on the computer is using the keyboard about 85-90% of the time anyway (grossly exaggerated, but maybe not).

Having said this, as I said in another thread, I think while many use the keyboard more than they realize - they fail to recognize that they use a combination of the keyboard and mouse because I think that using one or the other solely will slow you down; however, some folks like to take their time, too - especially if they are perfectionists! (Guilty as charged)

How does one enter notes - regardless of what view? By playing the instrument which is much faster, but alot more mistakes are made when doing so. Or do you enter them via the qwerty keyboard or mouse? The process is much slower, but accuracy (wrong note, timing is off, etc) is hardly a concern.

While there's seemingly alot less to learn when using a mouse; there is not a lot more to learn with the keyboard. 

This is no different than the TV/CV usage inquiry as the same deduction can be made: "I've used the CV more and am used to it whereas the TV intimidates me because there is so much more to - not necessarily do, but, remember!!"

Mouse user
Prefer Sonar 8.0

In general, I have not been a Keystroke user since the days of DOS.

Why ???

Hmmm

I never thought about it, but probably because I use so many different software programs for work, laboratory analysis software, office apps, music, video and film production etc........  it seems confusing to remember so many different keystrokes.

Yes, there are of course a half dozen or so universal keystrokes (Ctrl-S for example) ....... but for the most part, every software package is different.

While a mouse can be universal as long at the topmost menu of every software package it complete (File, Edit, View, Options, etc..)
Perhaps a fraction of a second slower, but you can always be functional in every software without needing a reference chart, keyboard overlay, or refer to the HELP section to remember the key stroke you need.

But if a person uses the same single program HEAVILY day after day, I can see why they would use keys.

But if you bounce around between 12-15 software programs every few days that run the range from Office Suites,  specialized LIMS for testing labs, Pro Tools -vs Sonar,  Samplitude, Film production and video editing, etc......        then a person has a better memory than me if they can keep all those keystrokes straight in their head.  (smile)

mikespitzer


Mouse user
Prefer Sonar 8.0

In general, I have not been a Keystroke user since the days of DOS.

Why ???

Hmmm

I never thought about it, but probably because I use so many different software programs for work, laboratory analysis software, office apps, music, video and film production etc........  it seems confusing to remember so many different keystrokes.

Yes, there are of course a half dozen or so universal keystrokes (Ctrl-S for example) ....... but for the most part, every software package is different.

While a mouse can be universal as long at the topmost menu of every software package it complete (File, Edit, View, Options, etc..)
Perhaps a fraction of a second slower, but you can always be functional in every software without needing a reference chart, keyboard overlay, or refer to the HELP section to remember the key stroke you need.

But if a person uses the same single program HEAVILY day after day, I can see why they would use keys.

But if you bounce around between 12-15 software programs every few days that run the range from Office Suites,  specialized LIMS for testing labs, Pro Tools -vs Sonar,  Samplitude, Film production and video editing, etc......        then a person has a better memory than me if they can keep all those keystrokes straight in their head.  (smile)

How do you think programmers of anything feel when they have to basically submerge themselves with/in command lines in DOS/Win/Linux or webmasters/mistresses who allow stuff like this to appear as such when written like this: {b}this to appear as such{/b} (notice why I didn't use [brackets])


Now, just imagine without being with your mouse *gasps* Usage, although, it is a valid point, doesn't negate nor should it negate the other option. I use my car everyday imagine if I had to finally walk somewhere and with how much it takes to feed automobiles nowadays! (Notice the irony with the conflicting analogies)

I am a mouser - right hand.
Left hand - a wine glass.

I think some folks are overlooking the Right mouse options menus that well written software apps have,

For example, with audio editing

My personal preference would be Left Mouse for the actually CLICKING
But right mouse brings up the TOOL options

That way you don't need all the navigating Daveny5 mentions above or memorized keystrokes

Some of the Video Editing software is great that way.

In the final analysis, as long as the designers offer BOTH options in their software, then everybody should be happy.
They can work however they prefer.

However it would be a horrible mistake for a company to REMOVE mouse options completely and make a software in today's world that can ONLY be used with keystrokes.

That would meet with much criticism and lost sales.

sven450


I WAS a mouse man in 8.5, but after messing with X1 for all this time, and watching the fantastic videos that Groove3 created, I have been really focusing on the keyboard shortcuts.  Those videos really opened my eyes to the power of the keyboard shortcut, and now I am a keyboard convert. 

This doesn't really help your survey, but I just had to share....

Could not have said it better and matches my experience exactly. The groove 3 videos changed everything!! (bapu)

I rely on the mouse mostly but also like using the single key short-cuts as well as the standard Windows double key short-cuts. 

I quite dislike the triple key short-cuts and the modifier key/mouse click combinations.

Why does it have to be one or the other? Why not both?

Have to say, I get a little concerned when I see statements like "when I adapt to X1"... Huh? Who's the machine here? Or am I just out of touch in 2011? Was I just never asked to assimilate?

RE: blender. Perfect example! .... of bad UI design. I don't use blender for one reason: if you don't know the myriad alt-shift-meta-escape-ctrl-click combinations you can't do something as simple as create a cube, a light source, and render a pretty picture. In my case I just don't have the patience or inclinitation to fill my head with alt-shift-meta-escape-ctrl-click combinations before I can be creative. To me that rigid UI approach is a problem. And it is a subject for debate on the interweb (and by that I mean blender's UI approach). Create a logical, well-designed alternative to alt-shift-meta-escape-ctrl-clicks and the problem is solved.

In my line of business alot of my co-workers enjoy using IDEs (integrated development environments), many times exclusively. Personally, I've always been an emacs/command line kind of guy. Emacs is primarily a text editor, but can be setup to do just about anything... integrated source control, source level debug, etc. Emacs is alt-shift-meta-escape-ctrl heaven, for those that aren't familiar. So despite my comments above, I'm perfectly comfy with crazy keyboard gymnastics, if that's the best way for me to do what I want/need to do.

But sometimes I use both... sometimes I just want to pop open xcode or vs or eclipse or whatever to get something done, and sometimes I want/need the power and simplicity of emacs for what I'm doing. But I need both to be the most effective. There are simply some things I can do in one environment, but not the other, or in a fraction of the time it would take, etc. More options = good; less options = bad. IMO.

Well keith - whatever program you are using, you have to learn the in- and outs. In that way you are already "adapting". I guess your only problem is with the amount of adapting, not adapting itself. That is discussable, but you must realise some people can "adapt" better than others. And some people can adapt better to a certain scheme while other people "don't get it". This does not mean those other people are stupid or something. It only means the scheme contradicts with their internal perception on "how things should work".

I can assure you I am not "assimilated" by Sonar X1. You overestimate the power (in this specific case) of the program.. 
I CAN say I am very comfortable with it.  Too bad it does not "click" for you...

Oh - and shortly off-topic... Did you try Blender 2.56beta (that beta does not mean the program is not stable ore something - only some little things are missing that will be added later on)? This latest version is more mouse orientated. However - I must admit  this program has a lot of key-combinations, and if you persist you don't want to "adapt" to that, the program is certainly not for you. No problem with that...

Anyway - it is really sad X1 does not fit in your perception of "how a program must work", because I think it is a good program. It fits perfect in my own perception. Yes - there are some nasty bugs, but they don't bite me - and I am confident these will be sorted out later.

So - same program, but two different people. And so - two different opinions about usefulness..
No problem - as long as there is respect  for those two different opinions....