Bub
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My first X2 mix --- cover of Mustang Sally
Howdy, Ok ... this deserves some explanation ... In 1996 my band did a series of quick demo's on my Tascam 488 8-Track machine. A couple years ago I started ripping all those tapes to my PC. This one was left unfinished back in 96 and we used a different take. All there was to work with was a drum track, rhythm guitar, and 2 vocal takes. The guy singing was one of the two lead singers in the band and he thought he was this great Elvis impersonator. I thought his vocals on this were hilarious, so I added all the instruments you hear and made it sound more 'hokey'. I chopped up the drum track so there are breaks, but on the original, it's a steady beat all the way through from my Alesis SR-16 that we used, which I still have. . The backups on this I did using his two vocal takes, and used V-vocal on one to create a third harmony part, and used Z3TA 1 for the funky effect. Drums: Alesis SR-16 (1996) - ripped from Tascam 488 8 Track Vocals: (1996) - ripped from Tascam 488 8 Track All other instruments - 2010 using Sonar 8.5 Final Mix and Master - 2012 using Sonar X2 and all the Pro Channel goodies. I should probably also tell you that the guy singing, yeah ... he's a bit coo-coo for coco puffs. I had that in mind when I was doing the keyboard parts ... you'll hear. It's more of a comedy number (although he took it very seriously) Don't miss the Elvis judo chop sound effects! LOL! Mustang Sally Cover I experimented with this song .... please be brutally honest about the mix and mastering, the instrumentation was intentionally not perfect as it's more of a comedy type thing. I did something I never did before using X2. I'll let you know what I did after I get some responses ... Click here for Version 2 (Updated 10-20-2012)
post edited by Bub - 2012/10/20 01:06:40
"I pulled the head off Elvis, filled Fred up to his pelvis, yaba daba do, the King is gone, and so are you."
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digi2ns
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Re:My first X2 mix --- cover of Mustang Sally
2012/10/05 23:50:11
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Im diggin it Bub I got one posted of us doing it at a car show on youtube. Love that song
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Old55
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Re:My first X2 mix --- cover of Mustang Sally
2012/10/06 00:03:35
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Should auld acquaintance be forgot--hey, who the hell are you guys? X2(X3 pending hardware upgrade), Emulator X2, E-mu 1212M, Virtual String Machine
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Bub
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Re:My first X2 mix --- cover of Mustang Sally
2012/10/06 00:10:47
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Wow! No comments on the mix or master! I'm am totally floored! If you guys pick up on anything in the least, please let me know. Thanks for listening so fast! Hope you liked the Elvis judo chop sound effects he did.
"I pulled the head off Elvis, filled Fred up to his pelvis, yaba daba do, the King is gone, and so are you."
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digi2ns
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Re:My first X2 mix --- cover of Mustang Sally
2012/10/06 00:19:52
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Well I still suck at mixing LOL but I think the Kick could use some bottom punch (Drums seems a lil weak but cymbals are good) I want to say something about the guitars fading into keys or something, on my 4th listen and cant put my finger on it yet. Mix/Master sounds good outside of the Drum EQ or recording Are all the insturments you added midi? OHHHH Im listening on my cans too
post edited by digi2ns - 2012/10/06 00:21:26
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Bub
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Re:My first X2 mix --- cover of Mustang Sally
2012/10/06 00:29:06
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digi2ns ... I think the Kick could use some bottom punch (Drums seems a lil weak but cymbals are good) Thanks! I used some pretty heavy saturation on the kick. The problem is, all the drums were mixed on to one analog track so I can't boost or EQ individual drums/cymbals. I want to say something about the guitars fading into keys or something, on my 4th listen and cant put my finger on it yet. I don't know what that is either. :) Something to do with the Wah effect I used I think. :) But I know exactly what you're talking about and where. Are all the insturments you added midi? The keyboard on the left is something from Dim Pro, but I played it live. The one on the right is my old Korg X5 using the analog audio outs. I didn't touch anything up with PRV ... it's all live playing and one take. I just had fun and was fooling around on my Korg. Stuff always seems to come out better that way for me. :) OHHHH Im listening on my cans too Cool. I'll check back tomorrow and hopefully I'll have some more input. I'll let everyone know how I mixed/mastered this then ... heading out now. Thanks again! Bub
"I pulled the head off Elvis, filled Fred up to his pelvis, yaba daba do, the King is gone, and so are you."
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digi2ns
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Re:My first X2 mix --- cover of Mustang Sally
2012/10/06 00:37:06
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Just a thought, Take the audio track for the drums, bring up transients and adjust it out to where you can get down to the drum hits. Ill do this, Copy as MIDI in Audio snap Duplicate it 1 for kick 1 for snare 1 for toms Then go in and erase everything off each that dont belong Then you can replace or overlay them to enhance the original track Shouldnt take but 15-30 minutes on each piece and well worth the effort for what ya have going there. I like it Yah, I figured it was all live cause of the playing but alot stuck me as done with a midi controller/keyboard. GREAT Playing all the way around
MIKE --Dell Studio XPS I7/870 2.93 Ghz, 8GB Mem, 2-2TB Barracuda HDs, 500 GB Ext.HDD, Win7/64 --X1 64 Pro Expanded, Dual 21" Monitors --PCR500 --MAUDIO FastTrack Ultra --Mackie 1604 VLZ PRO --Line6 X3 Live --Gibson, Fender, Takamine, Schecter, Washburn http://pogopoppa.wix.com/5thgear# http://soundcloud.com/digi2ns
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Bob Oister
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Re:My first X2 mix --- cover of Mustang Sally
2012/10/06 03:54:59
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Hey, Bub, This is actually a really cool cover! I'd say the mix sounds really great, nice, clean and wide with lots of space between the instruments. Especially after all you had to go through to get the tracks from the old tape and then through two versions of Sonar. That Tascam model used a cassette, if I remember correctly. My only suggestion would be to beef up the drums a little bit, but of course that's a subjective opinion. You reminded me that someday I have to try to drag out my Fostex Model 80A reel to reel to try to transfer some of my old 80's original stuff to a PC before I throw it up on eBay. Anyway, really nice job revamping this old classic, have a good one! Bob
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Lynn
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Re:My first X2 mix --- cover of Mustang Sally
2012/10/06 11:46:41
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First of all, I really dig this version, Bub. I started playing this song ever since Wilson Pickett did his version once upon a time, and it's been a standard ever since. I've never heard a version of this with a clean, chorused guitar before, but you make it sound like it was meant to be that way. I hope you're enjoying the X2 experience because I remember the problems you had when X1 came out. I think many of us will be making more music this year.
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Wookiee
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Re:My first X2 mix --- cover of Mustang Sally
2012/10/06 14:54:37
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Cool cover Bub, for me it does sound a little thin which as mentioned is subjective. Thanks for sharing
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M@ B
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Re:My first X2 mix --- cover of Mustang Sally
2012/10/06 22:38:38
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I enjoyed it, thanks Bub. If you don't like the old Alesis drums, you could probably replace them pretty easily since they are an exact tempo. Cool version, nice guitars.
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Bub
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Re:My first X2 mix --- cover of Mustang Sally
2012/10/07 01:50:36
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Thanks everyone for the input. What I did on this song was, I used a cheap pair of crappy old headphones to mix and master it ... I haven't even listened to it on my HS-80's yet or in my car. The only plugs I used were Guitar Rig, Pro Channel modules that come with X2, the PC2A Leveler module, Breverb, Melda Free Limiter, and Melda Free Stereo Expander. You should have seen the mix before I reset the desk. I had tons of EQ's and compressors. I don't have a single plugin in any FX bin other than Guitar Rig on some tracks. It's really a lot of fun working with X2 and I'm getting excellent results with the new Console EMU, plus Breverb. To me, that's pretty special because I've never been able to get a mix and master completed this fast and have it sound this good in any version of Sonar prior. I really do like X2 a LOT. It's brought the fun back in to this hobby for me! Thanks again for listening and please ... any and all criticism is appreciated on this mix. It's an experiment using X2 and just a pair of headphones. As for the drums some of you talked about ... I intentionally added heavy saturation to get it to sit in the mix better. I'll go back and adjust it and warm them up. Now that you guys have brought my attention to it, I hear exactly what you're talking about. Thanks again! Bub
"I pulled the head off Elvis, filled Fred up to his pelvis, yaba daba do, the King is gone, and so are you."
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Jeff Evans
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Re:My first X2 mix --- cover of Mustang Sally
2012/10/07 04:05:13
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Hey Bub. In the Orbison and Elvis tribute band I mentioned we sometimes did a dance set after the show and we often started with Mustang Sally. I did not waste any time laying into it big right from the get go. You have got this clave sound on the snare for the whole song with occasional snare hits and it sounds a bit wimpy. Big kick ass snare beat right from the start. Listen to the recent remakes of this. eg Commitments etc. Drums could be a bit more hard drivin. This is one of those tunes where the verses are as big or bigger than the choruses and the choruses seem to almost lay back slightly.
post edited by Jeff Evans - 2012/10/07 09:10:15
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Danny Danzi
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Re:My first X2 mix --- cover of Mustang Sally
2012/10/07 10:21:18
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Well since you're asking for mix and master advice...who better than your favorite person on this forum to add some input? LOL! To be honest, the mix itself level wise is great. I'd not touch a thing. It's clean, clear and everything is audible at all times. The only slightly negative comment I can give you is...it sounds a tad too high passed to me. Like...sort of AM radio sounding with how the low end is curbed. Ok wait, AM radio might be a bit too extreme....I honestly don't mean that in a mean way....I'm trying to think how else I can explain it. Like...it doesn't have the low end impact it needs in my opinion. It kinda sounds like an eq curve you would hear (low end wise only) in the 1950's. You know how they were a bit conservative in the lows back then due to fidelity reasons? That's what I mean. Bass guitar is good...it's the lack of kick drum/over-all drums and thinning of the drums/cyms that makes it a little small...if that makes sense? Like...I put it on a scope for you. Your bass is right where it needs to be, but your kick drum seems to be putting out more high end "click" energy than it should be. Like, the highest peak I see in this is 95 Hz in the low end. For some power in the low end, 50-75 Hz for your kick drum depending on where you want it to thrust...bass can be 60-90 depending on what you want the bass to be. For example, you have a nice balanced bass in this that has more "oom" than high end clack. So if I'm you in this situation, I'm going to leave the bass...maybe add a little more 80 Hz depending on what my kick drum outcome may be, and grab a kick drum to thrust at about 60 or so...maybe 55 Hz...depending on if you want a little low end kick thrust. Tighter Q so it doesn't boom out on you. You just want a little sub harmonic boom to it...the clickiness you have there in it sounds like it's hitting at about 4.5 k to me...which I like. I just think you need a little more low end oomph to the mix and maybe not high pass as much if you are. The other instruments sound a bit tight on high passing as well, but again, if the kick and drums were a little thicker with some meat, you may not need to touch them. It's amazing how a drum kit and a bass can alter the entire sound of the mix on the whole. Once you get the drums and the bass forming a team, then you can make the decision as to whether or not the other instruments need a little more low end. But from what I hear, it just needs a little less high passing over-all. This can come from cans that may throw out a little too much bass, so it makes you a little more conservative with allowing low end to be present. That said, it's a great mix really...add a little more oomph to it and it will be perfect. Clean as a bell though Bub...which is always a plus in my opinion. Nice job, hope this was the type of feedback you were looking for. -Danny
post edited by Danny Danzi - 2012/10/07 10:25:04
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Bub
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Re:My first X2 mix --- cover of Mustang Sally
2012/10/07 10:53:28
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Danny Danzi Well since you're asking for mix and master advice...who better than your favorite person on this forum to add some input? LOL! To be honest, the mix itself level wise is great. I'd not touch a thing. It's clean, clear and everything is audible at all times. The only slightly negative comment I can give you is...it sounds a tad too high passed to me. Like...sort of AM radio sounding with how the low end is curbed. Ok wait, AM radio might be a bit too extreme....I honestly don't mean that in a mean way....I'm trying to think how else I can explain it. Like...it doesn't have the low end impact it needs in my opinion. It kinda sounds like an eq curve you would hear (low end wise only) in the 1950's. You know how they were a bit conservative in the lows back then due to fidelity reasons? That's what I mean. Bass guitar is good...it's the lack of kick drum/over-all drums and thinning of the drums/cyms that makes it a little small...if that makes sense? Like...I put it on a scope for you. Your bass is right where it needs to be, but your kick drum seems to be putting out more high end "click" energy than it should be. Like, the highest peak I see in this is 95 Hz in the low end. For some power in the low end, 50-75 Hz for your kick drum depending on where you want it to thrust...bass can be 60-90 depending on what you want the bass to be. For example, you have a nice balanced bass in this that has more "oom" than high end clack. So if I'm you in this situation, I'm going to leave the bass...maybe add a little more 80 Hz depending on what my kick drum outcome may be, and grab a kick drum to thrust at about 60 or so...maybe 55 Hz...depending on if you want a little low end kick thrust. Tighter Q so it doesn't boom out on you. You just want a little sub harmonic boom to it...the clickiness you have there in it sounds like it's hitting at about 4.5 k to me...which I like. I just think you need a little more low end oomph to the mix and maybe not high pass as much if you are. The other instruments sound a bit tight on high passing as well, but again, if the kick and drums were a little thicker with some meat, you may not need to touch them. It's amazing how a drum kit and a bass can alter the entire sound of the mix on the whole. Once you get the drums and the bass forming a team, then you can make the decision as to whether or not the other instruments need a little more low end. But from what I hear, it just needs a little less high passing over-all. This can come from cans that may throw out a little too much bass, so it makes you a little more conservative with allowing low end to be present. That said, it's a great mix really...add a little more oomph to it and it will be perfect. Clean as a bell though Bub...which is always a plus in my opinion. Nice job, hope this was the type of feedback you were looking for. -Danny Thanks! Yes, this is exactly what I was looking for. This whole 'experiment' was a test of X2 for me. I can't believe how easy it is to get a good mix with it so fast. I've remixed 4 songs this week that I had been tinkering with for literally years. With the Pro Channel working now, and the new console EMU ... oh man. This is going to change everything for me. And the craziest thing about this is ... I'm using the crappy onboard Realtek sound with ASIO4ALL drivers that haven't been updated in 2 years! I had to freeze the tracks with Guitar Rig ... but so far it's handling 14 tracks and 5 buses of the Pro Channel chock full of modules with absolutely no problem. The drum track on this was done with a preset on an Alesis SR-16 with the drummer trying to do live stuff along with the preset with the touch pads. We recorded it with a stereo to mono cable on one track, so unfortunately all I can do is EQ and Compress the entire drum mix. I'll go back and tackle the drums today. Thanks for the input! Bub.
"I pulled the head off Elvis, filled Fred up to his pelvis, yaba daba do, the King is gone, and so are you."
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Bub
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Re:My first X2 mix --- cover of Mustang Sally
2012/10/07 11:16:48
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Jeff Evans Hey Bub. In the Orbison and Elvis tribute band I mentioned we sometimes did a dance set after the show and we often started with Mustang Sally. I did not waste any time laying into it big right from the get go. You have got this clave sound on the snare for the whole song with occasional snare hits and it sounds a bit wimpy. Big kick ass snare beat right from the start. Listen to the recent remakes of this. eg Commitments etc. Drums could be a bit more hard drivin. This is one of those tunes where the verses are as big or bigger than the choruses and the choruses seem to almost lay back slightly. Hi Jeff. Thanks for your input on this. Like I said to Danny, it was a preset on an Alesis SR-16 with some live drum hits thrown in. I agree, the drum track leaves a lot to be desired. I tried to use Audio Snap to extract midi data so I could replace the drums, but there was too much going on and it couldn't lock on to a beat. Even though the beat was from a drum machine, it's ripped for analog tape and it does drift, so it's not as simple as figuring out the tempo and using the Step Sequencer. There were no choruses on this particular recording really. . It was just him singing, sometimes whispering the chorus part as place markers for additional overdubs we planned to do later, but we never finished it. So I had to work with what he did and use V-vocal to tweak some of it in to harmony parts. Amazing what we can do with technology isn't it? :)
"I pulled the head off Elvis, filled Fred up to his pelvis, yaba daba do, the King is gone, and so are you."
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digi2ns
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Re:My first X2 mix --- cover of Mustang Sally
2012/10/07 11:27:10
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Bub, You have about SOLD me on upgrading with all the positive comments LOL Looking forward to hear what you do with Danny and Jeffs comments.
MIKE --Dell Studio XPS I7/870 2.93 Ghz, 8GB Mem, 2-2TB Barracuda HDs, 500 GB Ext.HDD, Win7/64 --X1 64 Pro Expanded, Dual 21" Monitors --PCR500 --MAUDIO FastTrack Ultra --Mackie 1604 VLZ PRO --Line6 X3 Live --Gibson, Fender, Takamine, Schecter, Washburn http://pogopoppa.wix.com/5thgear# http://soundcloud.com/digi2ns
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Danny Danzi
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Re:My first X2 mix --- cover of Mustang Sally
2012/10/07 11:31:49
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You're welcome. I sort of figured that's what you were looking for so I took the gamble. :) Yeah it is a great piece of software, I totally agree. And thank God that thing with pro channel not working is a thing of the past. Thankfully for me, that stopped after one of the patches...but I'll never deny that it DID exist! Hahaha...funny you mention the Realtek. I can't tell you how many times I've mentioned it in posts and people think I'm nuts. I see nothing wrong with that card for both recording and mixing to be honest. I mean, ok, we both know that it doesn't have the best converters and is a cheap consumer card...but, it does work and to me, I've done some really nice work using it for sketch purposes. You'll probably notice a difference when you switch back to your faithful recording card though. I know you just moved and probably have it stored away or something..but this is good because if there is a difference, you'll notice it instantly when you run the other card. I've noticed a little difference between the Realtek and my other cards. But only due to the bit/sample rate...at least that's my hunch. I actually like the Realtek better at 16/44 than I like the other good cards I have because it seems to...hmmm...slightly dirt up...no, wait..not really dirt...umm..maybe cloud up a bit or something in a good way? The other cards are super clean. The other cards of course cook it once I move to 24/48...but they just seem too clean at 16/44 for some stuff. I dunno...maybe I just think I hear it. LOL! Like remember that tune you did with the turn-table simulation? The Realtek would have probably enhanced that a bit for the better due to it being consumer grade and giving you that "dirt under the finger nails" sound...you know, not as clean but in a good way? Yeah you should be able to salvage those drums....just see if you can add a little low end life back into them and you should be fine. Yeah your hands may be a little tied with the one track thing....I still have faith you can fix them though. Like I say...it's a well balanced mix just as it is. That little extram "oomph" if you can get it though, will definitely bring it over the top. It's not a necessity really...but if you hear what I hear now that I've pointed it out to you, that's where I'd at least experiment. If you don't hear it needing any low end on your systems, I say leave it man...it stands up well just as is. I just wanted to tell ya what my systems were reporting. I listened on consumer monitors (Logitech X-530) my AKG cans which are pretty true, and of course my Adam A 7's and NS 10's. They all seemed to be missing the same low end...so for me, that's usually a good indication that we can add a little more meat. Still a freakin' great job considering you grabbed an old recording, cleaned it up, used a Realtek and mixed it on cans. Hahaha! Makes ya glad to have this stuff, don't it? :) I hope Sonar keeps running well for you. You've paid your dues ten-fold with issues...time for some smooth sailing. -Danny
post edited by Danny Danzi - 2012/10/07 11:34:06
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bapu
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Re:My first X2 mix --- cover of Mustang Sally
2012/10/07 11:51:23
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Here's what I hear Bub, FWIW. Drums seem way to laid back in both level and drive. What you played on the bass is really cool but it does over power the drums. So to me, it's either lower the bass or raise the drums.
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Rus W
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Re:My first X2 mix --- cover of Mustang Sally
2012/10/07 12:46:06
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Nice track. Can't say what hasn't been said about the mix already. I like Bapu noticed the bass and drums needing better balancing. Where was the kick? I didn't notice it there, but I didn't notice not there either. Low end is very hard to tame even if you're experienced (ie: Danny is, I am not), but the most important thing when mixing is balance. Nice job again. The improvements will hopefully make it better.
post edited by Rus W - 2012/10/07 12:56:07
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Danny Danzi
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Re:My first X2 mix --- cover of Mustang Sally
2012/10/07 18:52:40
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RusLow end is very hard to tame even if you're experienced (ie: Danny is, I am not), but the most important thing when mixing is balance. So true....and actually, I struggle with it too sometimes. The hardest thing for me has been...when to boost the low end in frequency and when to just turn up the instrument instead. Like...you got a good kick drum happening that you want to hear more of. When you turn it up a little more...it sounds good. Yet if you back it down to where it was and then slightly boost the low end that's accentuating it...it sounds good there too. So it's more a decision making process for me more than having a problem taming it. The best method of handling it in my opinion Rus, is to not have it there in excess to begin with. Like one thing that I've noticed from doing this stuff all the time is...you sort of know when something is a good sound "for the mix" before you even print it where years ago, I printed sounds that were more "for my head" because I liked them. 8 times out of 10, I failed doing stuff like that. It's like you have to find this happy medium that doesn't sound too good because if it does, it usually needs some intense tweaking, ya know what I mean? One of the hardest things for me used to be guitar tones. Like most guitar players, I liked the way low end made the tone sound bigger and thicker while missing the mask of low end woooooooooossss it literally put into the mix. Or thinking "a bass guitar is a low end instrument...it should have a lot more lows in it" were some of the things I used to think. The reality there is, sometimes the kick drum may be the lowest sounding instrument to which you *could* then, allow the bass to have a little more clack or be a bit brighter. Or you may decide you want a kick with a bit more beater attack in it...so here is a good chance to let the bass rattle a little lower and be the low man on the poll. The good thing about how I do things now is....the only struggling I do is making up my mind, which I welcome with open arms as opposed to second guessing or wondering how to tame or control the bass as well as where to look for the offending frequencies. The right monitor rig has definitely helped me in that area though. Unlike Bub, when I used to mix more on headphones, what I used at the time seemed to always need more lows. So I'd add them....and then the car test would be like this wall of "whooomf" and mud. So even during those times, I'd be happy with a mix like his and would rather be a little bass light than bass heavy and loaded with mud like I was getting. That loaded with mud sound after you've worked on a mix for hours and hours is the most depressing thing I tell ya. I so don't miss those days. -Danny
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tbosco
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Re:My first X2 mix --- cover of Mustang Sally
2012/10/07 21:36:33
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Hey Bub! That's always a fun tune to play. I pretty much agree with everything Danny and the others said here about the low end of drums and bass, and the bit about drums being weak in the mix. Mixing in Headphones has never worked for me... So you have a mono drum track to work with if I read that correctly? I think there are a couple of "stereoizer" plugins out there, and I am in need of one myself as a matter of fact. I think they work on frequency/spectrum analysis and somehow spread the highs toward the sides. Another trick I have been thinking about for this dilemma is to copy the track twice, and with some serious EQing of each end up with a pseudo "kick" track, a "snare" track, and a "hi hat" track, each panned appropriately. As far as "fixing" your original drum track, I'm wondering if a good 3 or 4-band compressor might be able to boost the output of just a select band of frequency, such as the kick, and then the level of the whole drum track could be raised in your mix. And hey... if none of this works, you could always just "play" another kick drum part in on the fly!! Layers are great! Depending on the frequencies of your bass guitar and your kick drum, you can sometimes get great separation of the two by boosting a tad in the kick (90k for example), and CUT that frequency in the bass guitar. Boost a bass guitar frequency (say 140k) a tad, and CUT that same frequency in the kick. Then do something similar in the higher frequency attack portion of those 2 instruments so you can define the beater and the string attack sound. The ProChannel in X1/X2 is waaaaay too much fun for doing this! LOL Unfortunately, I am not in my studio as I listen to your song...on a laptop... and the whole mix sounds a bit mono to me except for the backup singers and oddly, sometimes the bass, are wide. Could be my imagination... been a long day. LOL If this is the case, you may want to think about panning a little differently. Rhythm guitars sound AWESOME when copied to another track, delay the copied track by 10-40 ms or so, and each track panned hard left and the other hard right. (known as the Haas Effect.) It makes them big and wide. Add a different EQ or saturation to one of them... experiment and have fun with it! Do pay attention to what Danny said about the whole mix being a liitle on the High-pass (bright) side. An EQ adjustment will tame this I think. A fine first cut Bub! I hope you don't think I've been too critical... after all, it's only my opinion...and we all know about opinions....LOL I can't wait to hear the 2nd cut!!
Cheers! Tony SONAR Platinum JNCS Computer with Asus X99 Motherboard (i7) Win10 Pro 64bit, 32GB RAM Motif XF7, Komplete 11, Ozone 7, Komplete Kontrol 88 keys, Softube Console 1, PreSonus Faderport 8, Focusrite ISA 430 Mk 2 Mic Pre, Yamaha HS8s and Sub Drawmer 3.1 Monitor Controller Fractal Axe FX 2 XL Guitar Processor Lots-o-Guitars
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Danny Danzi
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Re:My first X2 mix --- cover of Mustang Sally
2012/10/08 03:28:26
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tbosco Hey Bub! That's always a fun tune to play. I pretty much agree with everything Danny and the others said here about the low end of drums and bass, and the bit about drums being weak in the mix. Mixing in Headphones has never worked for me... So you have a mono drum track to work with if I read that correctly? I think there are a couple of "stereoizer" plugins out there, and I am in need of one myself as a matter of fact. I think they work on frequency/spectrum analysis and somehow spread the highs toward the sides. Another trick I have been thinking about for this dilemma is to copy the track twice, and with some serious EQing of each end up with a pseudo "kick" track, a "snare" track, and a "hi hat" track, each panned appropriately. As far as "fixing" your original drum track, I'm wondering if a good 3 or 4-band compressor might be able to boost the output of just a select band of frequency, such as the kick, and then the level of the whole drum track could be raised in your mix. And hey... if none of this works, you could always just "play" another kick drum part in on the fly!! Layers are great! Depending on the frequencies of your bass guitar and your kick drum, you can sometimes get great separation of the two by boosting a tad in the kick (90k for example), and CUT that frequency in the bass guitar. Boost a bass guitar frequency (say 140k) a tad, and CUT that same frequency in the kick. Then do something similar in the higher frequency attack portion of those 2 instruments so you can define the beater and the string attack sound. The ProChannel in X1/X2 is waaaaay too much fun for doing this! LOL Unfortunately, I am not in my studio as I listen to your song...on a laptop... and the whole mix sounds a bit mono to me except for the backup singers and oddly, sometimes the bass, are wide. Could be my imagination... been a long day. LOL If this is the case, you may want to think about panning a little differently. Rhythm guitars sound AWESOME when copied to another track, delay the copied track by 10-40 ms or so, and each track panned hard left and the other hard right. (known as the Haas Effect.) It makes them big and wide. Add a different EQ or saturation to one of them... experiment and have fun with it! Do pay attention to what Danny said about the whole mix being a liitle on the High-pass (bright) side. An EQ adjustment will tame this I think. A fine first cut Bub! I hope you don't think I've been too critical... after all, it's only my opinion...and we all know about opinions....LOL I can't wait to hear the 2nd cut!! Good stuff there Tony. :) As for those stereoizers....be careful with them if you find one you like. Most times you will not hear any difference unless you put a stereo effect on the track. If you don't, they seem to give you that phased sound. He's probably be better off putting a HAAS on the drums. And hey...did you know you don't have to clone your tracks to do the HAAS thing? Just simply put a delay like the Sonitus on the track, run the wet signal all the way up, set your delay time to taste and you're rolling. :) The cool thing about that is, you don't have to experiment with cloning...sliding back the tracks in ticks etc...you do it all from the delay non-destructively. For example, put a Sonitus on a track, jack up the wet signals too 100, set the delay to like 15, 20 or 30 ms. You don't even need to have the left side delay in the mix because you want one of them to be in time. Just turn off the grouping in the delay and set the left side to 0 on the wet level so it stays in time, right side all the way up and put in your time for the right side. It's pretty slick because you can work with it in real time. From there, use the wet signal level as your wideness control. The lower you make it, the tigher it will bring in the delayed signal on the right. For example, say we have a drum kit like Bub's going on. We set up the HAAS like I mentioned with the delay and we find that at 100 wet on the right side, Bub's drums seem to be a bit too wide and separated from the mix. Like for me...I HATE toms or cymbals that seem so far panned, they are walking on guitars or something else. I like to keep my entire drum kit panned from say 50L/R or 60L/R so they don't fly all over the place and get disconnected from the mix. Because Bub's drums are mono though, he may get away with say 70 on the wet delay control. The more he turns that down, the more it pulls in the spread. :) Just figured I'd share this with you because one of the things I hated about cloning was that I had to experiment so much with sliding the tracks backwards or forwards. With the delay, you do it in real time and never worry. :) -Danny
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Rus W
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Re:My first X2 mix --- cover of Mustang Sally
2012/10/08 05:05:45
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Danny Danzi Rus Low end is very hard to tame even if you're experienced (ie: Danny is, I am not), but the most important thing when mixing is balance. So true....and actually, I struggle with it too sometimes. The hardest thing for me has been...when to boost the low end in frequency and when to just turn up the instrument instead. Like...you got a good kick drum happening that you want to hear more of. When you turn it up a little more...it sounds good. Yet if you back it down to where it was and then slightly boost the low end that's accentuating it...it sounds good there too. So it's more a decision making process for me more than having a problem taming it. The best method of handling it in my opinion Rus, is to not have it there in excess to begin with. Like one thing that I've noticed from doing this stuff all the time is...you sort of know when something is a good sound "for the mix" before you even print it where years ago, I printed sounds that were more "for my head" because I liked them. 8 times out of 10, I failed doing stuff like that. It's like you have to find this happy medium that doesn't sound too good because if it does, it usually needs some intense tweaking, ya know what I mean? One of the hardest things for me used to be guitar tones. Like most guitar players, I liked the way low end made the tone sound bigger and thicker while missing the mask of low end woooooooooossss it literally put into the mix. Or thinking "a bass guitar is a low end instrument...it should have a lot more lows in it" were some of the things I used to think. The reality there is, sometimes the kick drum may be the lowest sounding instrument to which you *could* then, allow the bass to have a little more clack or be a bit brighter. Or you may decide you want a kick with a bit more beater attack in it...so here is a good chance to let the bass rattle a little lower and be the low man on the poll. The good thing about how I do things now is....the only struggling I do is making up my mind, which I welcome with open arms as opposed to second guessing or wondering how to tame or control the bass as well as where to look for the offending frequencies. The right monitor rig has definitely helped me in that area though. Unlike Bub, when I used to mix more on headphones, what I used at the time seemed to always need more lows. So I'd add them....and then the car test would be like this wall of "whooomf" and mud. So even during those times, I'd be happy with a mix like his and would rather be a little bass light than bass heavy and loaded with mud like I was getting. That loaded with mud sound after you've worked on a mix for hours and hours is the most depressing thing I tell ya. I so don't miss those days. -Danny The mixing on headphones (small monitors or earbuds) I'm not one to mix with them either, but they are useful too point out the low end problem, but they'll definitely clue you in on mids and highs. With the issue of just turning it down, in this case, it appears to be that way then more frequency tinkering, but always be aware of both options. Making up one mind as a result is frustrated, but I think we all agree that, leaving the project and coming back with fresh ears even if something seems obvious, will point out the problem. Nothing like being to close to a mix even if it is mixed well. Test the mix in different environments; however, do mix it well (not perfect) in the source environment because if it's not right there, it won't be anywhere else.
iBM (Color of Music) MCS (Digital Orchestration) "The Amateur works until he (or she) gets it right. The professional works until he (or she) can't get it wrong." - Julie Andrews
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Danny Danzi
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Re:My first X2 mix --- cover of Mustang Sally
2012/10/08 06:11:56
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Rus W Danny Danzi Rus Low end is very hard to tame even if you're experienced (ie: Danny is, I am not), but the most important thing when mixing is balance. So true....and actually, I struggle with it too sometimes. The hardest thing for me has been...when to boost the low end in frequency and when to just turn up the instrument instead. Like...you got a good kick drum happening that you want to hear more of. When you turn it up a little more...it sounds good. Yet if you back it down to where it was and then slightly boost the low end that's accentuating it...it sounds good there too. So it's more a decision making process for me more than having a problem taming it. The best method of handling it in my opinion Rus, is to not have it there in excess to begin with. Like one thing that I've noticed from doing this stuff all the time is...you sort of know when something is a good sound "for the mix" before you even print it where years ago, I printed sounds that were more "for my head" because I liked them. 8 times out of 10, I failed doing stuff like that. It's like you have to find this happy medium that doesn't sound too good because if it does, it usually needs some intense tweaking, ya know what I mean? One of the hardest things for me used to be guitar tones. Like most guitar players, I liked the way low end made the tone sound bigger and thicker while missing the mask of low end woooooooooossss it literally put into the mix. Or thinking "a bass guitar is a low end instrument...it should have a lot more lows in it" were some of the things I used to think. The reality there is, sometimes the kick drum may be the lowest sounding instrument to which you *could* then, allow the bass to have a little more clack or be a bit brighter. Or you may decide you want a kick with a bit more beater attack in it...so here is a good chance to let the bass rattle a little lower and be the low man on the poll. The good thing about how I do things now is....the only struggling I do is making up my mind, which I welcome with open arms as opposed to second guessing or wondering how to tame or control the bass as well as where to look for the offending frequencies. The right monitor rig has definitely helped me in that area though. Unlike Bub, when I used to mix more on headphones, what I used at the time seemed to always need more lows. So I'd add them....and then the car test would be like this wall of "whooomf" and mud. So even during those times, I'd be happy with a mix like his and would rather be a little bass light than bass heavy and loaded with mud like I was getting. That loaded with mud sound after you've worked on a mix for hours and hours is the most depressing thing I tell ya. I so don't miss those days. -Danny The mixing on headphones (small monitors or earbuds) I'm not one to mix with them either, but they are useful too point out the low end problem, but they'll definitely clue you in on mids and highs. With the issue of just turning it down, in this case, it appears to be that way then more frequency tinkering, but always be aware of both options. Making up one mind as a result is frustrated, but I think we all agree that, leaving the project and coming back with fresh ears even if something seems obvious, will point out the problem. Nothing like being to close to a mix even if it is mixed well. Test the mix in different environments; however, do mix it well (not perfect) in the source environment because if it's not right there, it won't be anywhere else. I'm with ya...but even using them for mids and highs can sometimes be the death of you especially if they are mid/high strong...or mid/high weak. I sincerely don't put too much stock in cans anymore these days because to be honest, in all my years I've never completed a mix in cans that even remotely comes close to what I've been able to come up with using my monitors + ARC. Years ago, I'd use my NS-10's to get levels on instruments and then use my AKG's to do all the frequency work. Though I felt I did a "slightly better than demo quality" job all those years, I feel a lot better these days being able to say "I now do a WAY better than demo quality" job. LOL! Still not major label, but in some things....I feel I'm getting there and can come darned close. Close enough for me anyway. :) But I've never been able to get that close using cans, buds etc. I've been through quite a few sets of cans too....they just don't do it for me. To be honest? I sure wish they did because I enjoyed mixing in headphones and actually miss it. It brings you a little closer to the music in my opinion. But man, the compensation of doing that just tore me to shreds. It's like you mix what sounds like a killer mix in your cans or on your studio monitors...then take it out somewhere else and are greeted with this other thing that you didn't hear at all when you were mixing it. These days with my monitor rig and ARC, whatever I mix is what I get everywhere thank God. It's like...you know that "stuff you didn't hear at all" that you sometimes hear after mxing in cans that I mentioned? It almost sounds like it's not the same mix when you fail, right? With what I do now, you always hear the exact elements of the mix and it's never drastically different. So at least now I get the consistent sound of @ss everywhere. LMAO! It's much better than second guessing I tell ya! Hahahahaha! -Danny
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Rus W
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Re:My first X2 mix --- cover of Mustang Sally
2012/10/08 07:17:24
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^ As they say: "Experience is the best teacher!" You've had quite a few! That goes for everybody here. (Of course, have someone who's in the know about this stuff, too. Multiple sets of ears aren't a bad thing.
iBM (Color of Music) MCS (Digital Orchestration) "The Amateur works until he (or she) gets it right. The professional works until he (or she) can't get it wrong." - Julie Andrews
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tbosco
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Re:My first X2 mix --- cover of Mustang Sally
2012/10/08 08:20:23
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Right on Rus... the more ears the better. Kinda like eyes! LOL And I do believe headphones can be spot on for checking stereo placement and motion. Danny- Thanks for the delay tip. I'll try it on a forthcoming project. I like Haas a lot. I've never had a problem cloning a track and moving one of them a few ms. I usually get the desired result in a matter of seconds when I use it. Maybe I've just been lucky. I am guilty in my earlier days of having panned drums too wide (HH and snare). After a lot of critical listening I have them much more toward center than I used to, but I have never tried Haas on 'em. I usually save that for guitars, background vocals, or other textures that have nice highs in them that I want at the sides....ear candy! LOL Sounds great on jangly acoustic guitars too. I'm really new to this Forum and really enjoy sharing and learing from all who contribute here, as I have only been seriously recording for almost 2 years.
Cheers! Tony SONAR Platinum JNCS Computer with Asus X99 Motherboard (i7) Win10 Pro 64bit, 32GB RAM Motif XF7, Komplete 11, Ozone 7, Komplete Kontrol 88 keys, Softube Console 1, PreSonus Faderport 8, Focusrite ISA 430 Mk 2 Mic Pre, Yamaha HS8s and Sub Drawmer 3.1 Monitor Controller Fractal Axe FX 2 XL Guitar Processor Lots-o-Guitars
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vechung
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Re:My first X2 mix --- cover of Mustang Sally
2012/10/08 09:37:04
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Nice cover! The singer is really good. The mix is a bit bright for me. I would add more of the bass drum. After the first chorus I would use the snare to kick things up, but those were live recorded drums though.
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Bub
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Re:My first X2 mix --- cover of Mustang Sally
2012/10/09 10:25:37
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Thanks for all the feedback everyone! I'm working on applying the advice given so far. I'll post an updated version soon. Thanks!!
"I pulled the head off Elvis, filled Fred up to his pelvis, yaba daba do, the King is gone, and so are you."
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Freddy J
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Re:My first X2 mix --- cover of Mustang Sally
2012/10/09 16:52:03
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Great job Bub. I won't comment on the mix (as the experts have spoken above) other than to agree that the drums sound a bit thin. Given that you were transferring from tape, it sound mighty good. Freddy J
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