My world has been turned upside down.

Author
Dave Modisette
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 11050
  • Joined: 2003/11/13 22:12:55
  • Location: Brandon, Florida
  • Status: offline
2014/07/06 21:01:21 (permalink)

My world has been turned upside down.

I never really thought about it when I unpacked my NS10Ms some 20 years ago.  I put them up at ear level with the Text graphic oriented in the horizontal position like it seemed logical to do.  The biggest question was whether to have the tweeters on the outside or the inside and most of the studio pics I saw had them on the outside.  So that's the way it's been since then.
 
But this week I was looking at some candidates for mid field speakers so that folks wanting to hear a mix in the small couch behind me might have a bigger sweet spot.  So I ran into articles and discussions about how speakers should be oriented.
 
Part of the discussion involved the NS10 and NS10m and how they came to be oriented horizontally and the reason that position came about.  I even found a post from a guy who had his vertically with the tweeters on the bottom.  Lately, I've been questioning everything that I do and made a habit of so, what the heck, I had a free afternoon and I started moving speakers around.
 
First thing I immediately noticed that the vertical orientation was more focused and "lined up."  The sweet spot was definitely bigger in the sitting position.  I kept spinning them 90 degrees and listening and every time, the vertical orientation sounded better.  And like the one odd ball guy, I ended up with the tweeters down because that aligned with my ears better.  Even the bass response was tighter in that position.  So for now, I'm leaving them upside down.  





Dave Modisette ... rocks a Purrrfect Audio Studio Pro rig.

http://www.gatortraks.com 
My music.
... And of course, the Facebook page. 
#1

16 Replies Related Threads

    The Maillard Reaction
    Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 31918
    • Joined: 2004/07/09 20:02:20
    • Status: offline
    Re: My world has been turned upside down. 2014/07/06 21:11:49 (permalink)
    Awesome post!!!
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
    ...bapu should read this.


    #2
    rumleymusic
    Max Output Level: -60 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 1533
    • Joined: 2006/08/23 18:03:05
    • Location: California
    • Status: offline
    Re: My world has been turned upside down. 2014/07/07 12:36:42 (permalink)
    The reason to have the tweeters on the out side is for time alignment.  Since the woofer is deeper in the box the tweeter naturally has an advantage by being closer to the listener by an inch or two.  To compensate it is traditional to place the tweeter further away.  Unfortunately this means a chance of missing the sweet spot entirely when sitting too close.  
     
    It definitely sounds better to have the tweeter pointing directly at your ears, though that may give you a false sense of what the sound truly is.  The lower frequencies could be delayed and slightly out of phase with the highs.  Just something to be careful of when situating them. 
     
    I definitely think it is better to have the tweeter vertical at any rate.  The stereo image can become out of focus with a two-way horizontal alignment, especially in the near field.  

    Daniel Rumley
    Rumley Music and Audio Production
    www.rumleymusic.com
    #3
    Cactus Music
    Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 8424
    • Joined: 2004/02/09 21:34:04
    • Status: offline
    Re: My world has been turned upside down. 2014/07/08 00:33:30 (permalink)
    H
    post edited by Cactus Music - 2014/07/22 00:24:56

    Johnny V  
    Cakelab  
    Focusrite 6i61st - Tascam us1641. 
    3 Desktops and 3 Laptops W7 and W10
     http://www.cactusmusic.ca/
     
     
    #4
    Dave Modisette
    Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 11050
    • Joined: 2003/11/13 22:12:55
    • Location: Brandon, Florida
    • Status: offline
    Re: My world has been turned upside down. 2014/07/08 11:39:58 (permalink)
    The thing that I noticed was that I could hear the tweeter separately from the woofer and just moving my head forward and back brought this out.  Didn't take much movement at all. 
     
    Most folks tend to agree that the horizontal positioning was not intended at first.  In fact, the logo was 90 degrees from it's current orientation on the original release because they were intended as bookshelf speakers.  The horizontal position came from a need to not block the main studio speakers which is something that I am having to deal with now.  I've got a pair of soffit mounted JBL 4312s behind them.  That's not a major problem for me because I was looking for a replacement for them when I started reading up on tweeter/woofer orientation.

    Dave Modisette ... rocks a Purrrfect Audio Studio Pro rig.

    http://www.gatortraks.com 
    My music.
    ... And of course, the Facebook page. 
    #5
    mixmkr
    Max Output Level: -43.5 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 3169
    • Joined: 2007/03/05 22:23:43
    • Status: offline
    Re: My world has been turned upside down. 2014/07/08 11:59:06 (permalink)
    Mod...The NS10s I've listened thru, I've never really liked, but I've used some that were as far away as your 4312's are.  That was terrible, actually.  I have some 4311 that I've used for years and years, and really liked them.  Then, this last winter I got some Yamana HS80m on an impulse buy because I got them used for $300/pr.  I don't think they're really much like the NS10, as much as some people say they are. I figured, they'd make a good alternative speaker along with my old Auratones.  When I first listened thru them, I was blown away and have since just pulled my 4311 out of service.  I've tried flipping my Yamaha's in different orientations, but on the side with tweets out ended up being my favorite.  I'll have to visit vertical again, as that's been recommended to me over and over again.
    Mod....looking at your studio pics, I'd think your 4312 would be blocked a tad, firing into the back of your desk and NS10s.  When they're cranked a bit, I suppose that wouldn't really matter so much, and that's where my 4311 excel actually as well... up an amount louder in the 100+dB range at the listening spot.  Low volume, the Fletcher Munson seems to really take affect and they sound thin and *honky* now compared to my little, inexpensive Yamahas, which sound pretty much the same at any volume.  But especially good at below 90dB.
    I've been told to lower them as well, but they are pretty much at ear level.

    some tunes: --->        www.masonharwoodproject.bandcamp.com 
    StudioCat i7 4770k 3.5gHz, 16 RAM,  Sonar Platinum, CD Arch 5.2, Steinberg UR-44
    videos--->https://www.youtube.com/user/mixmkr
     
    #6
    mixmkr
    Max Output Level: -43.5 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 3169
    • Joined: 2007/03/05 22:23:43
    • Status: offline
    Re: My world has been turned upside down. 2014/07/08 12:04:18 (permalink)
    Also...Hey Mod... I'd be interested in your take someday, if you ever listened to the current crop of Yamahas... like the HS8.   The inexpensive JBL ($250 8" version- LSR 308) are pretty much in the same catagory too.  You might be as surprised as I was with these *newer* speakers...even with their low cost.
     
    On an aside...I listened to some Focal twinB fairly recently... infact the guy I got my HS80m upgraded to them...  And although they were very nice, I didn't see them as $2500+ nicer.  I thought the HS80m hung right in there, as a surprise.
     

    some tunes: --->        www.masonharwoodproject.bandcamp.com 
    StudioCat i7 4770k 3.5gHz, 16 RAM,  Sonar Platinum, CD Arch 5.2, Steinberg UR-44
    videos--->https://www.youtube.com/user/mixmkr
     
    #7
    spacealf
    Max Output Level: -54 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 2133
    • Joined: 2010/11/18 17:44:34
    • Status: offline
    Re: My world has been turned upside down. 2014/07/08 17:21:44 (permalink)
    The cones of the speakers are the same difference away as in the tweeter and woofer; it is called being in Phase!
    The cones of the woofer if the coils do not have proper suspension can sag, and go out of alignment. That is what different speakers do when not made properly or stiff enough to hold the suspensions of the cones and coils in place.
    That is why better speakers sound better over the long run, or speakers made to be that way.
    The area of dispersal of the frequencies create the image of the sound and the speakers should be made to specific tolerances to accommodate aging and alignment of the speakers. If sounding too bad or placing those speakers vertically or horizontally then the speakers just were not made good enough.
     
    Buy a newer pair now knowing that companies scrimp on features like that when they made the speakers.
    Sorry, but I just trust JBL if the speakers were good enough from them in the first place.
    I doubt those cheaper monitors they built even though good wide dispersion will last all that long in the end.
    ??
    It is a throw-away world it seems. Last awhile and continue to use it like it is, or invest in a newer set of speakers because somewhere in the brain you knew that it had happened and you finally realized that part of cabinet and speaker making.
    Spend more money or be satisfied with what you still have, I suppose.
    End of speel!
    End of feedback!
    End of distortion.
    The end.
     
    #8
    mixmkr
    Max Output Level: -43.5 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 3169
    • Joined: 2007/03/05 22:23:43
    • Status: offline
    Re: My world has been turned upside down. 2014/07/08 17:30:37 (permalink)
    spacealf...what are actually saying?  Are you saying the newer breed of inexpensive speakers are just disposable pieces of garbage...or??  That JBL's newer cheapies sets are just that...and don't compare to their older, but upper end stuff....not that the 43XX series was *upper end*.  Just popular like the NS10 became to be.

    some tunes: --->        www.masonharwoodproject.bandcamp.com 
    StudioCat i7 4770k 3.5gHz, 16 RAM,  Sonar Platinum, CD Arch 5.2, Steinberg UR-44
    videos--->https://www.youtube.com/user/mixmkr
     
    #9
    spacealf
    Max Output Level: -54 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 2133
    • Joined: 2010/11/18 17:44:34
    • Status: offline
    Re: My world has been turned upside down. 2014/07/08 18:16:08 (permalink)
    Just that they may not last as long as in usually the more you pay the more you get, but there is a break point where the expense becomes so much more for the increase in quality that most people probably will not buy it.
    Afterall I would think the Event Opals would last longer but they are 10 times the cost (for one speaker than the JBL speakers that just came out for two speakers). The real JBL Monitors are $20,000 dollars, and are huge and very heavy and also handle a lot more wattage and are different than the speakers instruments are played through in the sense of transient response which stereo monitor speakers are supposed to be better at.
     
    http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/M2System/
    They come with two Crown Power Amps.
     I just do not need 1200 watts of amp and speakers though.
     
     But on speaker design and cabinet design:
    "Our ear is not an ideal instrument of sound perception and sound waves do not propagate through space ideally." (from link)
    http://www.audioholics.co...dspeakers-buying-guide
    http://www.buyingloudspea...peaker%20Enclosure.htm
    http://www.duncanamps.com..hnical/speaker_cab.html

    The current concept of loudspeaker was created in 1898 by Oliver Lodge, an English scientist.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oliver_Lodge

    http://www.edinformatics....entors/loudspeaker.htm

    Plasma speaker
    http://en.wikipedia.org/w.i/Plasma_arc_loudspeaker

    The Art of Speaker Design
    http://www.nutshellhifi.c...y/speaker-design1.html

    Plasma Ion Tweeter
    http://www.enjoythemusic....002/acapellavoilin.htm


    I think the Yamaha speakers are all acoustic suspension speakers.
    But there is the bass reflex enclosure, the horn enclosure, and the folded horn enclosure (for bass frequencies) and whatever else is been built as a speaker and speaker cabinet design.
     
    post edited by spacealf - 2014/07/08 18:19:38
    #10
    mixmkr
    Max Output Level: -43.5 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 3169
    • Joined: 2007/03/05 22:23:43
    • Status: offline
    Re: My world has been turned upside down. 2014/07/08 18:32:35 (permalink)
    Yeah...I understand.  My theory is if I get 5 years out of the Yamahas, I got my money's worth.  Then I'll get something again at that time...hopefully even better.  But I do hope they last longer.  The fact that they are active makes me more concerned about their power amps, than the speakers themselves.
     
    I will say my JBL 4311 have lasted since the mid 70's.  That's been a good value!  ;-)

    and yeah...not sure I understand why the M2 speakers are 20 grand.  Especially with the newer LSR series coming in at under $500.

    some tunes: --->        www.masonharwoodproject.bandcamp.com 
    StudioCat i7 4770k 3.5gHz, 16 RAM,  Sonar Platinum, CD Arch 5.2, Steinberg UR-44
    videos--->https://www.youtube.com/user/mixmkr
     
    #11
    Cactus Music
    Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 8424
    • Joined: 2004/02/09 21:34:04
    • Status: offline
    Re: My world has been turned upside down. 2014/07/08 19:00:31 (permalink)
    I
    post edited by Cactus Music - 2014/07/22 00:25:19

    Johnny V  
    Cakelab  
    Focusrite 6i61st - Tascam us1641. 
    3 Desktops and 3 Laptops W7 and W10
     http://www.cactusmusic.ca/
     
     
    #12
    Dave Modisette
    Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 11050
    • Joined: 2003/11/13 22:12:55
    • Location: Brandon, Florida
    • Status: offline
    Re: My world has been turned upside down. 2014/07/09 12:10:09 (permalink)
    I got my 4312s from a friend.  Fact is, he needed money for groceries after losing his job and he was much too proud to ask for (or accept) gift money or a loan so when he announced that I needed a set of 4312s for my studio (and he had them), I knew exactly what the "real deal" was.  So I became a proud owner of a set of speakers that I never really liked the sound of.  I agree that the honky sound is what I don't like about them, as well.  They were good for blasting out a client with a mix, though until I blew one of the midrange drivers tracking guitar or bass too loud.  (It could have been something else - I've practically used them for PA purposes .)
     
    I do like three way speakers for evaluation purposes but I always mix on the NS10Ms.  I recently got a set of the passive Avantones too when my old Radioshack Optimus speakers died as well.  I'd love to audition a pair of the JBL 3 way powered speakers but, IIRC, they're like $1500 each.  (Not going to happen.)  The KRK Rokit RP10-3 might throw some sound back behind me another 8 - 10 ft at a much cheaper price. 

    Dave Modisette ... rocks a Purrrfect Audio Studio Pro rig.

    http://www.gatortraks.com 
    My music.
    ... And of course, the Facebook page. 
    #13
    Danny Danzi
    Moderator
    • Total Posts : 5810
    • Joined: 2006/10/05 13:42:39
    • Location: DanziLand, NJ
    • Status: offline
    Re: My world has been turned upside down. 2014/07/13 23:28:44 (permalink)
    Mod Bod
    I never really thought about it when I unpacked my NS10Ms some 20 years ago.  I put them up at ear level with the Text graphic oriented in the horizontal position like it seemed logical to do.  The biggest question was whether to have the tweeters on the outside or the inside and most of the studio pics I saw had them on the outside.  So that's the way it's been since then.
     
    But this week I was looking at some candidates for mid field speakers so that folks wanting to hear a mix in the small couch behind me might have a bigger sweet spot.  So I ran into articles and discussions about how speakers should be oriented.
     
    Part of the discussion involved the NS10 and NS10m and how they came to be oriented horizontally and the reason that position came about.  I even found a post from a guy who had his vertically with the tweeters on the bottom.  Lately, I've been questioning everything that I do and made a habit of so, what the heck, I had a free afternoon and I started moving speakers around.
     
    First thing I immediately noticed that the vertical orientation was more focused and "lined up."  The sweet spot was definitely bigger in the sitting position.  I kept spinning them 90 degrees and listening and every time, the vertical orientation sounded better.  And like the one odd ball guy, I ended up with the tweeters down because that aligned with my ears better.  Even the bass response was tighter in that position.  So for now, I'm leaving them upside down.  








    Amazing how we all hear things differently while having different endings that bring us all to the same spot. :) I always hated my NS-10m's. As a matter of fact, I didn't like them until I stood them up (tweeters at the top) added a sub and ARC'd them. Now I love them and use them all the time.
     
    -Danny

    My Site
    Fractal Audio Endorsed Artist & Beta Tester
    #14
    Dave Modisette
    Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 11050
    • Joined: 2003/11/13 22:12:55
    • Location: Brandon, Florida
    • Status: offline
    Re: My world has been turned upside down. 2014/07/14 11:17:45 (permalink)
    Yeah, Danny.  I'm still fighting the urge to put them back on their sides like the "big time" guys.  That " big-time image" desire is a struggle. 

    Dave Modisette ... rocks a Purrrfect Audio Studio Pro rig.

    http://www.gatortraks.com 
    My music.
    ... And of course, the Facebook page. 
    #15
    Guitarhacker
    Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 24398
    • Joined: 2007/12/07 12:51:18
    • Location: NC
    • Status: offline
    Re: My world has been turned upside down. 2014/07/18 09:51:45 (permalink)
    Totally makes sense. The speakers, or should I say, many speakers, have projection patterns other than omni and especially the horns and tweeters in the boxes.  If they are throwing a rectangular pattern of sound, as some are designed to do, then yes, simply flipping them 90 degrees will either give a very narrow sweet spot where they are heard or a wider sweet spot depending on their orientation.
     
    If that pattern is also projected at an angle from the source, flipping them 180 degrees will affect them as well in how the sound is reaching the sweet spot and the ears of the listener.
     
    This technology is used in sound reinforcement in churches and other venues to provide intelligibility to the sound by focusing the sound only where it's wanted and keeping it out of where it's not.
     
    Good reading and good info. Many times folks simply set the speakers a certain way, as you said, because that's how they have seen it done or they think it looks cool. Experiment and see what actually works better and sounds better in your individual room. Don't worry about the looks, worry about the sound.

    My website & music: www.herbhartley.com

    MC4/5/6/X1e.c, on a Custom DAW   
    Focusrite Firewire Saffire Interface


    BMI/NSAI

    "Just as the blade chooses the warrior, so too, the song chooses the writer 
    #16
    Sidroe
    Max Output Level: -55.5 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 1954
    • Joined: 2010/11/10 18:59:43
    • Location: Macon,Georgia
    • Status: offline
    Re: My world has been turned upside down. 2014/07/27 09:45:40 (permalink)
    Isn't it amazing that we all sweat and cuss trying to get that perfect monitoring situation. Cabs, positioning, sound treatment, etc. and when we're done our audience crushes the crap out of our pride and joy and downloads as an mp3 in to their phone to listen thru ear buds or a ghetto blaster! God, help us! LOL!

    Sonar Platinum, Sonar X3e, Sonar X2a , Sonar X1 Expanded and 8.5.3 (32 and 64 bit), Windows 10 on a Toshiba P75-A7200 Laptop with i7 @ 2.4 quad and 8 gigs of RAM and secondary WD 1 Tb drive, Windows 10 desktop, Asus i5 @ 3.2 quad, 12 gigs RAM, 1 Tb drive, 1 500 gig drive, MOTU 24io, 2 Roland Studio Captures, Saffire 6 USB for laptop, Soundtracs Topaz Project 8 mixer, Alesis Monitor 2s, Event BAS 20/20s, Roland Micro-Monitor BA-8s, and 45 years worth of collecting FX, Mics, Amps, Guitars, and Keyboards!
    #17
    Jump to:
    © 2024 APG vNext Commercial Version 5.1