Hsusy
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RE: NUENDO SONAR REALY DISAPPOINTED
2004/07/07 15:42:43
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ORIGINAL: kp
Playback out of the soundcard *might* not be identical to what results from a mixdown, but only if there's a bug somewhere. For example, going back a few years now, one of the early versions of the Echo ASIO driver had a one or two sample delay introduced in one channel - so the sound during playback would be 'phasey' whereas the sound from an export, which would bypass the driver, would be fine if played back through the MME driver. It's a rare case - and is indicative of a bug - but possible.
Well, that's kinda what I am wondering, Is there anything else that will induce difference between export and playback before the driver say within the application itself. I do still think that's possible... I do realise I am getting off topic, I do apologise.
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tarsier
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RE: NUENDO SONAR REALY DISAPPOINTED
2004/07/07 15:47:22
(permalink)
As an aside, how many Chief Technical Officers (or what is Ron Kuper's title...?) would come on the forum to actually hash out this issue? That's one reason why I stick with Cakewalk even though it has some very annoying feature lapses (edit groups, cough, cough). This forum (and the fact that you don't get kicked off at the drop of a hat, unlike other forums) and Cakewalk's presence here are tremendous advantages in the marketplace. Keep it up, bakers.
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patrickhamm
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RE: NUENDO SONAR REALY DISAPPOINTED
2004/07/07 15:59:12
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sorry, you guys. I know this is dumb...
Can someone define "panning laws" for me? either that or could someone point me to a link? I am sorry if the specifics have already been discussed, but this thread has become so long I am having trouble finding the answer...
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kp
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RE: NUENDO SONAR REALY DISAPPOINTED
2004/07/07 16:22:13
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ORIGINAL: Hsusy
ORIGINAL: kp
Playback out of the soundcard *might* not be identical to what results from a mixdown, but only if there's a bug somewhere. For example, going back a few years now, one of the early versions of the Echo ASIO driver had a one or two sample delay introduced in one channel - so the sound during playback would be 'phasey' whereas the sound from an export, which would bypass the driver, would be fine if played back through the MME driver. It's a rare case - and is indicative of a bug - but possible.
Well, that's kinda what I am wondering, Is there anything else that will induce difference between export and playback before the driver say within the application itself. I do still think that's possible... I do realise I am getting off topic, I do apologise.
I would say "only if there's a bug" again. Why any developer would deliberately want the playback to produce genuinely different bits to an export is completely beyond me.
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gdugan
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RE: NUENDO SONAR REALY DISAPPOINTED
2004/07/07 16:38:00
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ORIGINAL: patrickhamm
sorry, you guys. I know this is dumb...
Can someone define "panning laws" for me? either that or could someone point me to a link? I am sorry if the specifics have already been discussed, but this thread has become so long I am having trouble finding the answer...
Nope, definitely not dumb. Panning law determines how much attenuation/gain is applied to a signal depending upon where it is panned in the stereo field. If a signal is panned toward center from one side or the other and it is not attenuated its apparent volume will increase because the sound is now coming from 2 speakers instead of 1. How much and at what rate the attenuation takes effect as the signal goes to the center is the panning law. This is analogous to the "taper" on pan pots on consoles.
< Message edited by gdugan -- 7/7/2004 1:40:09 PM >
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patrickhamm
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RE: NUENDO SONAR REALY DISAPPOINTED
2004/07/07 16:47:55
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thanks for the definition, Gary! Now, not having used Nuendo, I can understand why panning laws would play a part in different reactions to different audio engines.
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losguy
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RE: NUENDO SONAR REALY DISAPPOINTED
2004/07/07 16:55:41
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ORIGINAL: patrickhamm
Can someone define "panning laws" for me? either that or could someone point me to a link?
You can look at Section 5.2.3 on p.27 of this document, but the treatment there is a little deep, as it's generalized to 3-D, not just Left-to-Right. Basically, for a Mono audio source (track), the Pan controls how much of the Source gets routed to the Left output and the Right output. The extremes are easy to define: Pan on the Left is 100% of Source to the Left and 0% the the Right, and vice versa for Pan on the Right. What happens in between is a matter of design, for perception and flavor. Ideally, you'd have it set up so that: 1) the position of the Pan control maps directly to the perceived position of the Source in space, and 2) (this is also important) the perceived level of the source does not change with the pan position. A lot creeps in when you try to put these ivory-tower concepts into practice. 1) is affected by lots of things, like speaker placement, and whether you're listening to headphones. Also, 2) is sometimes not possible to achieve with a perfect 1), and vice versa. So, what's usually done is an approximation that best satisfies them both. If I understand the situation correctly, SONAR does a better job at this than Nuendo, particularly at 2), since it uses a -3dB combination at pan center, which is power-preserving. Hope that helps. I spared you the explanation of panning Stereo sources, because it is even more complicated. Edit: This document is more direct than the one above, though it's still pretty deep. A page out of a good Recording or Mastering book would probably be the best place to look.
< Message edited by losguy -- 7/7/2004 4:14:33 PM >
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Andrew Milne
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RE: NUENDO SONAR REALY DISAPPOINTED
2004/07/07 17:27:06
(permalink)
Also, 2) is sometimes not possible to achieve with a perfect 1), and vice versa. I don't agree with that point actually, because 1) is about dB difference between the two channels while 2) is about the dB sum of the two channels, so they are mathematically independent. Thing is 1) is very rarely attempted -- I'm not familiar with any panner which actually attempts to match the set pan position to perceived pan position. If it were, I can see no reason why it couldn't be made equal power. Anyway this is getting OT. I agree that SONAR's equal power pan law makes more sense than Nuendo's default 6dB law (though in Nuendo it can be set to 4.5, 3.0 and 0 as well). One aspect of Nuendo's default pan law is that relative to SONAR, for any given mix pan settings, the sounds at centre pan (voice, bass and drums) will be louder (relative to non-centre sounds) than what you get in SONAR. This will explain why, with the same pan settings as SONAR, Nuendo may appear to be "punchier" (louder kick) or "deeper"/"bassier" (louder bass) or more "involving" (louder voice). EDIT - correction: Actually it's the opposite of what I said above -- relative to SONAR, centrally panned sounds will be louder in Nuendo if it is using 0dB pan law, and quieter if it's using the 6dB pan law. Either way, if the pan law in Nuendo is different to SONAR, then you'll end up with a different mix when using the same settings
< Message edited by Andrew Milne -- 7/8/2004 4:18:20 PM >
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losguy
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RE: NUENDO SONAR REALY DISAPPOINTED
2004/07/07 17:56:08
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Hello Andrew! Yes, this is OT, but I feel you do deserve a reply. You're right, of course (thanks for that). Sorry, I was making a too fine point of it, really; I was coming at it from the perspective that the power-normalization warps the "elegant" sine-cosine shape that often appears in the literature (as per the two papers that I provided). As we have both pointed out, exact positioning in space as a function of the panpot position is difficult to translate into practice. They attempt it there by calibration of speaker position, listener position, etc. I actually do prefer the constant-power law; I find it much more natural. For practical systems, IMO the absolute panpot position mapping is not nearly as important as being able to control the relative positioning smoothly and naturally, with no change in perceived level. Again, sorry about the OT tangent everyone, and thanks for the clarification, Andrew. <Edited for clarity>
< Message edited by losguy -- 7/7/2004 5:03:15 PM >
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cAPSLOCK
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RE: NUENDO SONAR REALY DISAPPOINTED
2004/07/07 18:19:04
(permalink)
ORIGINAL: shea
As for wavefiles, i dont see the point in you coming back with a lot of useless scientific information about the
difference in extraction of two wavefiles.Surely its what we hear that matters.
I once was about to buy a car from a used car lot. I asked the salesman a question just for fun... "How do I know you are giving me a good price?" His answer: "As long as you think it is a good price it IS a good price, right?" I laughed myself all the way home in my old car. The "useless scientific information about the difference in extraction of two wavefiles" is the only objective way to try to prove your point. Period. If you hear a difference between two files that null... you are simply hearing things. But I spose the car salesman was kinda right... If you hear a difference... then you hear a difference. ;) cAPS *PS* I would be surpised if the resulting wav files of a complex project mixed in Sonar and Nuendo in the exact same way (if even possible) with plugins and panning and volume and such would actually null. But I think these things would be attibutable to small differences like how signals are handled by plugins, and big differences like pan law. BWDIK? -c
"We da da sahw pe paw fidlily-doobee afidlily-dooten-bweebee!" -Shooby
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Jay Stephen
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RE: NUENDO SONAR REALY DISAPPOINTED
2004/07/07 18:21:21
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Ah, the Emperor has no clothes!
XP SP1 Home (tweaked) P4 2.8 HT on P4C800-E 4x512 OCZ Dual Channel DDR Matrox G450 Dual 10G SCSI O/S 80G SATA Audio 500G SATA Backup M-Audio Delta 44 -WDM Pioneer A107D DVD-RW
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subgeek
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RE: NUENDO SONAR REALY DISAPPOINTED
2004/07/07 18:26:24
(permalink)
ORIGINAL: shea
As for wavefiles, i dont see the point in you coming back with a lot of useless scientific information about the
difference in extraction of two wavefiles.Surely its what we hear that matters.
Any wavefile will sound much the same even if played through windows media player,
Right! This is exactly what im using and im talking about listening with your ears and not any sceintific jargon.
...
Now i dont give a damn whether anybody believes it or not, but if you come back and say that their is no differince
here then i beleive that your not being straight.
...
shea
hey shea - don't take any of this thread personally. on the internet, nobody knows who you are. people make claims all of the time. if someone disagrees with you, it just means their opinion is different. if you present facts, and those facts are ignored, that's different. saying "i heard a difference" doesn't make the difference real. the difference may in fact be there, but until people see the evidence, they have no reason to believe you, especially when they have already seen evidence to the contrary. people will not buy a program like sonar or nuendo just to listen to music. so the output of the file is more valuable than a judgement of how identical files sound through different programs. that's why the scientific analysis is so telling. if they're creating identical files, both versions will sound the same when somebody plays them on their stereo. these programs are for creating, not listening. hopefully they aren't adding color to the sound that doesn't appear in the file output. if they do, it would explain why people say there's no difference when you hear one. but adding color that doesn't show up in the mix doesn't make any sense.
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ghijkmnop
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RE: NUENDO SONAR REALY DISAPPOINTED
2004/07/07 19:16:52
(permalink)
power-normalization warps the "elegant" sine-cosine shape Good Lord. My brain is starting to hurt. All we need to do is add plasma injectors and phase inducers and we have a Star Trek engineering discussion.
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Andrew Milne
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RE: NUENDO SONAR REALY DISAPPOINTED
2004/07/07 19:39:35
(permalink)
ORIGINAL: ghijkmnop
power-normalization warps the "elegant" sine-cosine shape
Good Lord. My brain is starting to hurt. All we need to do is add plasma injectors and phase inducers and we have a Star Trek engineering discussion.
It's getting dangerously close isn't it :) Carlos, some great articles here: http://www.hauptmikrofon.de/home-eng.htm Edit: sorry I mean "fascinating" ;)
< Message edited by Andrew Milne -- 7/8/2004 12:43:03 AM >
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Cass Anawaty
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RE: NUENDO SONAR REALY DISAPPOINTED
2004/07/07 19:48:56
(permalink)
Some years back I took a leap and posted "my experience" on the old NG regarding an unrelated issue, and really left no room for argument--it was presented as fact. I got smacked around pretty good by some pretty nice folks, and learned a valuable lesson: My experience was wrong. I think it was about 6 months before I posted again, but at least I knew when it was time to hush....  CAA
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SteveJL
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RE: NUENDO SONAR REALY DISAPPOINTED
2004/07/07 20:10:50
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ORIGINAL: cAPSLOCK
But I spose the car salesman was kinda right... If you hear a difference... then you hear a difference. ;)
cAPS
As in that old non-committal smokescreen: "I believe YOU believe it's true"
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SteveJL
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RE: NUENDO SONAR REALY DISAPPOINTED
2004/07/07 20:12:51
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ORIGINAL: ghijkmnop
power-normalization warps the "elegant" sine-cosine shape
Good Lord. My brain is starting to hurt. All we need to do is add plasma injectors and phase inducers and we have a Star Trek engineering discussion.
OK, let's set up a Holo-Deck simulation!
< Message edited by SteveJL -- 7/7/2004 9:06:52 PM >
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koolbass
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RE: NUENDO SONAR REALY DISAPPOINTED
2004/07/07 21:01:00
(permalink)
ORIGINAL: patrickhamm
Krystal? I'm not familiar with that program. I live in the south(USofA), and around here, Krystal means these rancid little burgers that one buys with 20 in a bag for $5. (And the next day, you will not wish to be near polite society ... whew ... now that's what I call NAAASTY ... at least 45% nastier ... KRYSTAL burgers!!) <g>
Please provide some actual data to back up your claim that Krystal burgers are 45% nastier. Thank you.
....sorry, couldn't resist... Percentages make me chuckle these past few days! 
You, my friend, are obviously not from around here. It's a well know FACT (no argybargy HERE) that EACH Krystal burger contains 5% NAAASTY, and if you buy a bag of nine burgers ... well you can do the math. Just DON'T confuse me with facts. (What is a "null" anyway ... must some sort of Florida snail or sumthin' ?) <g>  PS I personally think Ron Kuper, with the nulling of the two wav files settled this issue for me ... I'm out of here on this one. Thanks Ron.
< Message edited by koolbass -- 7/7/2004 10:13:27 PM >
Cheers, Lance "koolbass" Martin Sonar Platinum, Sound Forge Pro 12, ADK built audio computer: Intel 8 core i7 Haswell-E overclocked 4.2GHz; 32 Gig DDR4/2666 ram; Corsair 850W power; Windows Pro 10 x64; Geforce GTX 980 video w/4 monitors (Acer 27" touch screen/primary); 3 Seagate drives - OS, audio, samples, 2 TB external USB3 bkup drive; RME MADIface XT; Ferrofish A16 MKII ADDA; Lucid GenX 6-96 clock www.BoogieHouseMusic.com
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shea
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RE: NUENDO SONAR REALY DISAPPOINTED
2004/07/07 21:02:52
(permalink)
Listen Guys,
All this scientific evidence that you are all throwing out, I don't see the sense to it atall because we are living in the real world. I will admit one thing, I am not scientifically minded, but I am in the music business for the past 30 years. Making a living from it is the only thing I am interested in and that is providing the best possible service and an end quality product to our clients. These clients are not interested in the scientific analasys of a wav file, they are only interested in what they hear in the final product.
When half a dozen good paying customers come to your studio, and insist on using Nuendo, simply because they know the final product sounds better, I would have to agree with them, but most importantly, I have to stand back and take note of whats happening here. I would have thought that I gave a good enough analasys of my observations and I was merely asking why, but so far I end up with 5 pages of scientific useless discussion because after all guys, the people who spend their money recording are only interested in what they hear in the final product.
And by the way, one of my clients has mentioned that he has been in studios all over the world and he never came across one with Sonar in it, so there has to be something in my argument. Let's all get off the Cakewalk bandwagon for a while until we see is there any way we can get Sonar to be in the top 3 sequencers for professionals!! Surely marketing means that if you don't provide the customer with what he wants, you fail. This is not just my opinion, so when we have a chance to better it, with Cakewalk's involvement, don't fuel them with (they are always right replies!!) preventing them from developing a more advanced and professional programme. Surely a little competition never hurt anybody!
Shea
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losguy
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RE: NUENDO SONAR REALY DISAPPOINTED
2004/07/07 21:06:49
(permalink)
ORIGINAL: Andrew Milne
Carlos, some great articles here:
http://www.hauptmikrofon.de/home-eng.htm
Edit: sorry I mean "fascinating" ;)
Bookmarked. Wavefield synthesis, indeed. Very nice. Something like holographic panning? I'll read further. Thanks, Andrew!!
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EricRichmond
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RE: NUENDO SONAR REALY DISAPPOINTED
2004/07/07 21:15:13
(permalink)
ok shea, you must just be trying to break balls now, you consistently laugh at the facts, ignore all the holes being poked thru your arguments, your act is wearing thin, and you have little to no credibility left.
theres a pretty logical reason Sonar isn't in pro studios, and that would be because Sonar has only been around for 3-4 years now, from what I understand Cakewalk Pro Audio wasn't really considered a top flight program back then and Logic / Pro Tools were leaders in the scene. Now when people grow up and intern in studios, or go to recording school, since ProTools/Logic already have tracktion in the market, and never mind the fact that apple/digi give huge discounts and push for the students to use their products anyway, its kinda easy to figure it all out.
Its the 'what do you use?' syndrome. Actually, and truthfully, if I had 100k to spend I'd probably get a hardcore PT system too. :)
Some other guys can probably drop more insight into this, as I've only been into digital recording for 3 years now.
-Eric
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nachivnik
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RE: NUENDO SONAR REALY DISAPPOINTED
2004/07/07 21:16:18
(permalink)
Edit: __________
< Message edited by Howdy -- 7/17/2004 11:33:33 PM >
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shea
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RE: NUENDO SONAR REALY DISAPPOINTED
2004/07/07 21:21:11
(permalink)
In reply to Alndln.
I wonder who is the TROLL! here, me or you? I have sent this test to Cakewalk, simply because I don't see any point introducing it to people like yourself with this kind of contribution and reply. I am just a very ordinary man looking for a justified explanation from people who know. As far as being shot down so early is concerned, you should have read the whole 5 pages of replies before you made your smartass, unintelligent, schoolboy comments.
Shea
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Master Chief [Cakewalk]
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RE: NUENDO SONAR REALY DISAPPOINTED
2004/07/07 21:41:08
(permalink)
These clients are not interested in the scientific analasys of a wav file, they are only interested in what they hear in the final product. I understand that. But surely even your clients can understand that some science and engineering lies beneath all that shiny gear they use to make their sounds. Maybe the average musician doesn't care if two WAVs null out, but the average audio engineer does and understands. And any comparison of sound quality is going to be trusted only if it's done by audio engineers, using scientific methods such as double-blind listening tests or analytical comparisons of output data. Again, I don't dispute the emotional aspects of people's choices in software, and how they perceive quality. But the only thing I am capable of doing to improve the situation (if it needs improving) is to look at it analytically. When half a dozen good paying customers come to your studio, and insist on using Nuendo, simply because they know the final product sounds better How do they "know" this? Is this fact or marketing? I am primarily interested in facts. If 2 workstations produce the same output signal, and play through the same monitoring system, then they will sound the same. It's like buying 2 copies of a CD, one in Germany and one in the USA, playing both on the same stereo system and insisting the German one sounds better. How can that possibly be? The answer is, it can't be. Same goes for 2 DAWs that produce the same output bits.
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SonarFreak
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RE: NUENDO SONAR REALY DISAPPOINTED
2004/07/07 21:42:37
(permalink)
shea, Let me ask you a couple questions. 1. Do you have a web site where we can listen to some of the recordings you have done? Since your into the "sound" and not "scientifically proven" analysis, maybe it would help everyone trust what you're saying. 2. How long have you been in the "professional" recording business and how many songs have you produced. Can you pass along artist names etc.? 2. Why would you not provide audio so that we can hear the difference? If you're not willing to listen to the results that have been done by testing (both scientific and audible) from all the users, then how are we supposed to expect Cakewalk to respond to your argument? 3. You say you've sent your test to Cakewalk, but did you sent mp3's? Ron asked for .wav files as mp3's are compressed data and therefore meaningless when listening to audio with a critical ear or "scientific testing." Understand this shea, nobody here hates you or wants you to shut up. But you have not given a single person here any respect or anything for us to either agree or disagree with you. There is only so much vague comments that professional audio engineers and producers can listen to before we tune you out. In closing, if you would have posted your comments with an A/B between Nuendo and Sonar and asked for opinions along with voicing your concerns, most of the people that have been slamming you would have responded to your question. Since you've done nothing to validate yourself or your argument, nobody that is a true professional is going to take you seriously. Can you blame us? We're busy recording, not chasing rabbits! Let's see if you can put together a reply that includes validation once and for all so we can see if in fact Sonar needs an improvement. If you're right, then you'll make us all happy. If you don't ever share your findings and proof with us, then maybe you don't really have any evidence at all. Hope you deliver. Scott
< Message edited by SonarFreak -- 7/7/2004 9:47:55 PM >
~_SONAR FREAK_ ~ www.scottquillin.com Romans 8:28 "And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to His purpose."
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SonarFreak
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RE: NUENDO SONAR REALY DISAPPOINTED
2004/07/07 21:45:43
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Ron Kuper: "It's like buying 2 copies of a CD, one in Germany and one in the USA, playing both on the same stereo system and insisting the German one sounds better. How can that possibly be? The answer is, it can't be. Same goes for 2 DAWs that produce the same output bits." Great point Ron. I hope shea provides all of us audible proof of what he's hearing. He said he sent Cakewalk the file, yet you did not respond to that comment. Did you not receive the files? Thanks for the great reply Ron.
~_SONAR FREAK_ ~ www.scottquillin.com Romans 8:28 "And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to His purpose."
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Master Chief [Cakewalk]
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RE: NUENDO SONAR REALY DISAPPOINTED
2004/07/07 21:50:58
(permalink)
I didn't receive the files yet, though it's possible my spam filter ate them.
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Greg Hendershott [Cakewalk]
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RE: NUENDO SONAR REALY DISAPPOINTED
2004/07/07 21:56:25
(permalink)
You have been in the biz for 30 years. Therefore clients hire you for your expertise, confidence, and judgment.
That is why I mean the following with complete respect:
Do you want to be a sheep or a shepherd?
Pick a product that is used in most studios around the world today. Did it materialize there instantly? No. In the beginning, it was in zero studios. In the beginning, a few exceptional people used their independent minds and judgment. They adopted it and championed it. Others followed. Then others followed the followers. Eventually everyone believed it to be superior ... because everyone believed it to be superior. Of course the emperor has clothes.
As a matter of fact, SONAR is already in studios around the world. Actually, given the old school, 20th century Mac bias that persists among many old school guys, it is remarkable how many studios it is already in, today.
That doesn't mean we're satisfied. SONAR isn't in as many studios as I believe it deserves to be. Not even close. We're just getting started. I am totally convinced that you folks here today are the leaders that tomorrow's sheep will follow. You are way ahead of the old school, 20th century crowd. I think that's pretty exciting for all of us.
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UnderTow
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RE: NUENDO SONAR REALY DISAPPOINTED
2004/07/07 21:57:01
(permalink)
ORIGINAL: shea
Listen Guys,
All this scientific evidence that you are all throwing out, I don't see the sense to it atall because we are living in the real world.
Science IS the real world in this case. We are talking Digital Audio Workstations. 100% maths. If you don't even understand the very simple logic put forward to you, I am quite inclined to believe that you must be doing something wrong with your Sonar and/or Nuendo setup.
I will admit one thing, I am not scientifically minded, but I am in the music business for the past 30 years. Making a living from it is the only thing I am interested in and that is providing the best possible service and an end quality product to our clients. These clients are not interested in the scientific analasys of a wav file, they are only interested in what they hear in the final product.
It has been said before, pan-laws, dithering and wordclock syncing (ok this hasn't been mentioned before) might affect the sound. But do they affect the final product? The pan-law thing is a non-issue. It really doesn't matter what pan-law an application is using. When you use the application to mix, you listen with your ears and you adjust for the different pan-laws automaticly. If one application makes the kick-drum 3dB louder in the center of your mix, you will automaticly fix that by moving a fader. Turn off the internal dither. It isn't the best. The clock syncing won't make a difference between applications (unless there is a serious bug which I doubt. Were you syncing the apps to external wordclock?).
When half a dozen good paying customers come to your studio, and insist on using Nuendo, simply because they know the final product sounds better, I would have to agree with them,
Of course you have to agree with your customers but maybe they just THINK they know it sounds better. Thats a huge difference.
but most importantly, I have to stand back and take note of whats happening here. I would have thought that I gave a good enough analasys of my observations and I was merely asking why, but so far I end up with 5 pages of scientific useless discussion because after all guys, the people who spend their money recording are only interested in what they hear in the final product.
First you didn't give a good analysis at all. Just saying something sounds better doesn't mean anything. And again that useless scientific discussion comment ... Duh! You just don't like the reality of it because it proves you to be as subjective as the next person despite your 30 years in the business. Two identical wave files played through the same program+soundcard+monitors+room+etc will sound exactly identical. How hard is that to grasp? And remember these identical files were the output of the applications you say sound so different from each other.
And by the way, one of my clients has mentioned that he has been in studios all over the world and he never came across one with Sonar in it, so there has to be something in my argument.
Well one good reason is that the audio industry is filled with people like you that listen with their wallet rather than their ears ... You know that ProTools still doesn't have full automatic plugin delay compensation? There is loads of stuff you can't do in ProTools when the audio is running. For instance you can't add a track during playback. Just to mention two flaws ... Is that what you call professional? Still ProTools is the market leader for DAWs... There are many things to consider when chosing a DAW. The summing algorythms of the top applications isn't one of them IMO. (Unless there are applications that do something to colour the sound. That should be avoided. But Sonar doesn't do this afaik.
Let's all get off the Cakewalk bandwagon for a while until we see is there any way we can get Sonar to be in the top 3 sequencers for professionals!!
It seems you are on the Steinberg train going in the other direction. Anyway, what are the top three?
Surely marketing means that if you don't provide the customer with what he wants, you fail. This is not just my opinion, so when we have a chance to better it, with Cakewalk's involvement, don't fuel them with (they are always right replies!!) preventing them from developing a more advanced and professional programme. Surely a little competition never hurt anybody!
Oh I would love CakeWalk to develope Sonar more. (Envelope patch, edit groups, beat detective style tool, side-chains, variable gain tool, gapless edits, better groups management, etc etc) But you are just plain wrong about the audio engine. Live with it. UnderTow
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SteveD
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RE: NUENDO SONAR REALY DISAPPOINTED
2004/07/07 21:57:42
(permalink)
ORIGINAL: shea
When half a dozen good paying customers come to your studio, and insist on using Nuendo...
And this is the ONLY reason I have Nuendo. I refuse to use the VERY limited edition of Pro Tools and have no desire to be locked into only 8 channels of proprietary hardware and pay twice the price for the plugins I already own. So what's next in line in terms of industry recognition? Nuendo. But it doesn't sound better to me, and it has more problems than Sonar does, and Sonar gets better by a much bigger margin than Nuendo does with each release. All this for a great price, accessable involved technical support, this forum of highly competent and knowledgeable users, and NO DONGLES. It won't be long before Sonar has the industry recognition it deserves. I've said it before and I'll say it again. Sonar Rocks!
< Message edited by SteveD -- 7/7/2004 10:08:17 PM >
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