Need Church help...

I want to help folks at my church figure out how to get things sounding better, and I'd love some advice.
 
Ok, first, this is a very liberal / hippie church, but it has a ginormous organ in it.
When the Organist rolls, they are 24 db louder than the choir at least which is at most 10-15 people and is not mic'd.
 
Next issue, up on the 'stage' (not sure what to call it) the people gather and do a circle where people can tell exciting news from their lives. Kinda an old-school FB post. They pass around a dynamic mic, but the people either eat it or don't speak close to it at all. Is there a way to generally mic a circle with a dynamic that can be routed to the speakers? It would be best if it focused on the circle and didn't pick up ppl whispering to each other in the surrounding crowd.

I've little to no experience of church sound reinforcement specifically, but as with all things to do with sound reinforcement the answer will depend on your budget and what the venue/audience can get their heads around and will tolerate. It satrikes me that you're about at the point where sensitive sound reinforcement starts to become necessary.
 
Keyboards that put out huge volume differences between settings or single notes/chords are far from uncommon and unfortunately many keyboard players (like guitarists with big volume jumps when they step on some pedals) don't necessarily see why they should pay attention to that problem and take steps to deal with it themselves. The ideal solution is to re-train the musician, not just about volume but about leaving musical space for others, sadly that's often also the hardest solution to achieve.
 
If the organ isn't entirely acoustic (e.g. a pipe organ of the kind that turns up in British churches) and happens to go through seperate amplification (that's not built into it) one easy solution might be to strap a limiter/compressor between organ and amplifier. Wouldn't need to be expensive, any half decent rack compressor set with a high enough threshold top just catch the too loud bits should work. Just watch out for the increase in RMS volume if the organist keeps pushing out the volume. Failing that plug the organ into a mixer and ride the channel volume as required.
 
Failing getting the organ volume down, the choir has to get louder.
There are quite a few low profile dynamic mics (small capsules on thin, dark coloured stands) on the market that might do the trick for the choir. Maybe one each, or maybe just a couple or three at a distance might do the trick. Much will depend on training the choir into using microphones of course - particularly that they can't wander around in front of them or turn away from them and expect things to "just work" somehow. Another option is to hang overheads over the choir which might be better if the singers are inclined to be a bit mobile. Watch out for hand clapping though - it can cut through anything and is surprisingly loud compared to singing. Again, simple compression might be useful. Even one of the mixers that has "one knob" compression on the mic channels.
 
People passing a mic around is always a problem, there are people who no matter how often you explain it to them will simply never get the hang of any microphone technique. I've done conferences where speakers were all told when given the mic "hold it pointing at your mouth at a distance of three or four inches and speak normally like you would to someone standing next to you". So one speaker will hold the mic next to their lips and shout at it then the next speaker holds it at around waist height facing the audience and almost whispers.
 
Ideally I guess you do what most places dealing with several speakers do and put the mic on a stand (maybe hidden into a lectern or something) and the speaker goes to the mic to speak. The lectern then gives them somewhere to put notes down and keeps them at a sensible distance from the mic. . An omni-pattern mic on a stand can be useful if the speakers form a crescent round it, but not if you don't want any bleed-through from people near the mic.
 
Then there are the ones who tap the microphone pop shield asking "is it on" despite just seeing five people use it....
 
Really the best answer is to have someone with fast reflexes sitting at the mixer and actively riding the channel fader(s) and mute(s) all the time.

tlw, that was an amazing post! The idea of the omni mic in the celebration circle is awesome. Only real consideration is the cable... maybe take it wirelessly to the mixer so that no one trips.
 
Honestly, I'm kinda thinking a condenser cardioid on 10' stand near the choir near the front of the church. I'm a bit worried that I'll lose control of feedback, but I can give it try.

I don't like to be around that many sinners...

Yeah, the church is old and the population has slowly changed over the decades.

That's a big space and a beautiful building. I've heard of it and even seen old woodcuts of the exterior in books about the American Civil War but never seen the interior until now. A very nice example of its period and location.

Looking at it, unless your congregation can fit in the front three or four rows I'd be inclined to use subtle sound reinforcement for a small choir in there even without competition from the organ.

Pipe organs can sound amazing, but the volume that comes out of them at working air pressure is the only volume setting there is of course. Maybe encourage the organist to pull out a few fewer stops?

Fwrend is absolutely right that getting things balanced sound-wise has to be a process of taking everyone with you if it's going to work. In the end it's a win-win game because everyone benefits - musicians, singers, congregation, leaders and speakers because everything can be heard, no one is deafened and no-one has to strain their voice any more.

The main problem I can immediately imagine with the single mic at several feet scenario is that to get the mic's gain high enough for it to be doing much you might be getting much closer to the brink of feedback than you'd like. Spill from the organ (not just direct but from the building's natural reverb which will also be time-lagged) might be a problem as well. The further away a cardoid mic is the more spill it"s going to pick up and re-amplify and we all know where that ends up.

On the other hand, obtrusive mic stands would look out of place in that setting and I doubt you really need a mic for every singer anyway, and sound-checking would become a significant exercise if you did. There are mics and stands that are intended to blend in or "disappear" such as the AKG DAM+ range. The catch is that many of them are intended to be stood on a desk or lectern so are only 18" or so long. It might be worth your while having a chat with your local theatres, who might face similar problems of balance and projection, and find out what they are using. If individual mics are an acceptable solution might headset or lapel mics be a possibility?

The other thing to consider is speaker placement (how many as well as where), unless you've already got an adequate setup.

Since you mention Civil War history, there's an interesting story regarding the church from that time. As you may know, Robert E. Lee was asked by Lincoln to lead the armies of the north and he said he would take the side of Virginia, which ever side Virginia chose. Right across the street from this church, my daughter and I sat one day where the decision was made for Virginia to leave the Union. It was a close run thing apparently (88-55). Well, after the war, when it came time for communion in this church, an African American man bravely went up first and knelt to receive communion. The church stayed silent for a time until Robert E. Lee went up and knelt beside him. And then things proceeded as normal. At the time, parishioners purchased their pews and Lee's Pew was about the middle on the left hand wing, so he would not normally have been first to approach for communion. The church was a black-tie church for a time.
 
Jeans are now as common as not. (btw, I hope this wasn't tmi).
 
At one point, I wanted to record an impulse from different places in the church, but I think the idea of firing a starter-gun in the church made a lot of the folks uncomfy. Also, turns out getting something to make the impulse (like a starter gun) aint cheap. If you want an impulse, I could probably record a loud noise like the popping of balloon or something.
 

Paul,
 
I went and grabbed the tool you pointed me too and gave it a test in my room I call the studio...

 
The large number of varied peaks and valleys above 1K seemed to move every time I re-ran the test, but in the low end I could see some basic EQ Guidance.
 
I was thinking of getting the impulse from the church to use with convolution reverbs, not setting the eq. To tell the truth, the church's speaker system is not so great. It's ok for spoken word, but I'm not sure I'd want to trust it for full testing the room.
 
The benefit of recording a starter gun is it wouldn't depend on the speaker system. I'd just capture the sound with mics.

Thanks for the tips, GuitarHacker.
 
I don't think there's a realistic chance to abandon the pipe organ. The alternative is the piano that they have already implemented at the front of the church. There is no FOH person controlling mixes. Pretty much everything is just as is --- natural with no volume nobs. There is sometimes a bassist and guitarist who accompany the piano at the front of the church. The guitar is so quiet I was thinking of it sounding a bit like resonance on a Synth. Almost quiet beyond notice. The bass can be heard just barely. The bass is plugged in. The guitar is an acoustic (no amp).
 
All the musicians try pretty hard and do have talent of varying degrees. Mostly, the interest seems to be to say... 'can we make it better within a reasonable budget?'
 
I haven't had a chance to try any of the things we've talked about in this thread. I'll keep you posted.

Nice find, Mike! I had not read that before. I've been a member of the church since 1970. I was christened, choir boy for 8 years, boy scout, youth group, confirmed, and eventually married by the church (got married in my parent's back yard in a small ceremony by the pastor of the church). My parents both live in town and are both still active too.
 
The church has changed a lot over the years. It's a downtown church in a gay friendly city. One of the saddest things that happened in recent memory is two of our parishioners went out of town to get married because Virginia did not have legal gay marriage. Marriage for all in Virginia just became legal on Oct 6, 2014 (thankfully). "The world is learning." ~ Roger Waters
 
I said the church was hippie because I see it that way often. But in fairness, the church is big and not all hippie. Perhaps very liberal might be a better way of describing it.
 
The article you found, Mike, was written by our current musical director and I had not seen it. Thanks for sharing!
 
The Organ sounds great. It always has. We used to have pipes in the front and the back. Now they are all in the back. Some of the performances of Grant Helmers who was the old director were just stunning! There were pipes up near the front and around the bema (stage) as well. It was the most amazing surround sound organ and when he rolled it was just wild.
 
I praise Grant not to take away from David Sinden who wrote the text you linked to and has brought lots of wonderful music to the house as well.

Having just posted that the mic for the choir is only needed before communion begins and the mic for the celebration circle is only required after communion, I wonder if maybe I could use the same mic for both and simply move it. I was thinking that if I had a little battery operated pre-amp running to a wireless thingy that sends the signal to the board, the whole thing might be very portable, even in the middle of the 'show'.
 
I know my RME Preamp can be run off batteries, but I've never done it.

Yes, it's a tricky situation, and obviously has lots of competing factors, sound-wise, presentation-wise and quite possibly church politics-wise as well. Maybe it's one of those situations where if everyone (or enough people) agree things do need a bit of improving in terms of the sound balance they'd be amenable to altering the staging and presentation (for want of better terms) as necessary to make it work.
 
Overheads might indeed make sense, but positioning overheads so they don't boost up the organ might take a bit of thought and experimenting.

A special organ? Hard surfaces? 
 
Hang on while I put the softball up here on the Tee...

mettelus
but the pipes are on the opposite end of the church

Can you say latency ?
 

Latency, slapback delay and phasing issues from pipe organs in big echoing churches is a subject in its own right.

Here in the UK we still have lots of them in churches, cathedrals and Victorian era concert halls.

I've never played one myself, but according to someone who has latency (in a similar sense to latency in DAWs) can be a real issue with some of them. The complex mechanical couplings and air valves can mean that the organist is actually playing ahead of what is coming out of the pipes. Which besides being tricky in itself means that if the organist makes a horrible mistake they have time to realise exactly what they've done and that there is nothing they can do about it but cringe waiting for the mistake to boom out of the organ.

Incidentally, before pipe organs became the fashionable thing to have church music in England was mostly made by local musicians who'd be located in the church' west gallery. A typical mix might be fiddles, sackbuts, a serpent or two and so on. Whatever instruments the locals could play or owned, and not necessarily in that order.

The novelist Thomas Hardy was a west gallery musician (and a third generation fiddler who also played dance music and left us a very significant manuscript collection of traditional tunes). If he is to be believed west gallery musicians were not always as respectful of their surroundings as they might have been, and had ways of letting the Vicar know if the sermon was boring or the reverend was going on for too long.

Which might in part explain the fashion for the organs which replaced the musicians.