SonicExplorer
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Need MIDI Guidance in DAW Rebuild
Gents, I'm finishing the design on a Sonar DAW rebuild and have a final obstacle: MIDI support. What I'm looking for is the ability to hear sounds real-time as I trigger them, but am only interested in capturing the associated MIDI data. What I've done in the past is use an old SBLive card for it's synth engine. This allows soundfonts to be loaded onto the card, which is ideal when programming/monitoring drums or keyboards. And the SBLive has a "game controller" input on the card which lets MIDI device connect directly if needed. Then later on I use the MIDI tracks to trigger high-quality samples. The drawback to this approach is the SBLive itself. It can cause unpredictable things to happen in a DAW, and is also limited to 48KHz sample rate. I should also mention I'm using a RME Fireface 400, which apparently has MIDI support, but I've never actually used it since it has no synth engine. So....what would be some alternative methods now days to achieve similar functionality but without an SBLive card? I already tried loading soundfonts into a plug-in within Sonar, but there's too much latency. The solution doesn't necessarily have to revolve around soundfonts, but I need a similar kind of workflow that allows me to input and hear sounds "real time" along with a song to create MIDI tracks for processing later on. Sonic
post edited by SonicExplorer - 2017/09/01 03:24:11
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filtersweep
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Re: Need MIDI Guidance in DAW Rebuild
2017/09/01 01:47:23
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Why not just record tracks in sonar as synth tracks and plug in whatever vst you want. I don't but a lot of people use TTS to sketch out ideas then replace with other vsts later in the process. Not sure what you mean about FF400 and "synth engine"??
Sonar Platinum (lifetime). Kurzweil PC3X. Native Intruments S61. Native Instruments Maschine Micro Mk2, Roland OctaCapture. JBL 4328 monitors and 4312 sub. Windows 10. Intel 6700X, 32 gB RAM, 3 Crucial SSD (250/500/500). Komplete 10, Ample Sound SG, AAS Lounge Lizard/Strum/Strings/Chromo/UltraAnalog/Tass, Addictive Drums 2, a few others.
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noynekker
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Re: Need MIDI Guidance in DAW Rebuild
2017/09/01 02:23:34
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Hmm . . . I googled FF400, and found a respiratory face mask, so don't know what audio device that might be ? It sounds like you just need to get some kind of low latency audio interface to record midi. There are many USB interfaces for as little as $120 (depending of course on how many ins and outs you need to record or monitor at once), they are available with midi in / out patchpoints, complete with midi drivers that work great in Sonar. I haven't used soundfonts for a very long time, used to have a nice collection, but now there are so many VST synths and high end samples available, and the computers of today can handle low latency recording . . . for much longer into the creation process, before you have to eventually adjust the latency to allow for all the mixing stage plugins.
Cakewalk by Bandlab, Cubase, RME Babyface Pro, Intel i7 3770K @3.5Ghz, Asus P8Z77-VPro/Thunderbolt, 32GB DDR3 RAM, GeForce GTX 660 Ti, 250 GB OS SSD, 2TB HDD samples, Win 10 Pro 64 bit, backed up by Macrium Reflect, Novation Impulse 61 Midi Key Controller, Tannoy Active Near Field Monitors, Guitars by Vantage, Gibson, Yamaki and Ovation.
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slartabartfast
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Re: Need MIDI Guidance in DAW Rebuild
2017/09/01 02:25:37
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The much maligned Soundblaster series did have the ability to run soundfonts from hardware, which is capable of very low latency. That was something that was pretty useful in the days when we used machines with a gig or less of memory and a processor that ran a clock an order of magnitude ormore slower than today's machines. A modern machine should be able to run a rompler from software without excessive latency, and there are a ton of free soundfont players out there. Are you running a seriously antique machine? If not, then maybe you should look into why the latency is so high.
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SonicExplorer
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Re: Need MIDI Guidance in DAW Rebuild
2017/09/01 03:26:09
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FF400 = Fireface 400 (by RME). I updated the OP to clarify this. I'll try tinkering with the latency, but past experience leads me to believe I won't be able to achieve a real-time feel. Sonic
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noynekker
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Re: Need MIDI Guidance in DAW Rebuild
2017/09/01 04:10:25
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Ahh, so you already have replaced your soundblaster with a top notch RME interface, now we just need to know what your computer specs are to determine why you might have excessive midi latency when trying to create something. Though, your post subject seems to indicate you are looking for advice on creating a new DAW, or perhaps just getting the most efficient midi usage from what you already have ?
Cakewalk by Bandlab, Cubase, RME Babyface Pro, Intel i7 3770K @3.5Ghz, Asus P8Z77-VPro/Thunderbolt, 32GB DDR3 RAM, GeForce GTX 660 Ti, 250 GB OS SSD, 2TB HDD samples, Win 10 Pro 64 bit, backed up by Macrium Reflect, Novation Impulse 61 Midi Key Controller, Tannoy Active Near Field Monitors, Guitars by Vantage, Gibson, Yamaki and Ovation.
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Cactus Music
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Re: Need MIDI Guidance in DAW Rebuild
2017/09/01 04:15:44
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I think what you need to d is learn how to use the hundreds of wonderful VST software synths , nobody has used soundfonts for 12 years or more. we all use the built in or 3rd party VST instruments and you for sure can play them in real time, Many use Sonar and it's VST's live on stage. You should not experience latency using a RME.
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SonicExplorer
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Re: Need MIDI Guidance in DAW Rebuild
2017/09/01 05:15:21
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I have both the RME and the SBLive in the system, which is a dual core Pentium 3GHz.
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jim137
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Re: Need MIDI Guidance in DAW Rebuild
2017/09/01 10:53:05
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I use TX16Wx recommended by someone here. available here: http://www.tx16wx.com/I cannot let go of some of my soundfonts either; especially the voices in papelmedia.
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Paw
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Re: Need MIDI Guidance in DAW Rebuild
2017/09/01 12:18:54
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It's easy. If Sonar see your RME midi ports, then go to add track - instrument track - and choose TTS. Then in input signal choose your RME midi channel ( omni it's good for start ), and you will hear your TTS sound when you play on controller. Rest is for you, you can record, or change sound in TTS.
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SonicExplorer
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Re: Need MIDI Guidance in DAW Rebuild
2017/09/01 17:03:51
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Paw It's easy. If Sonar see your RME midi ports, then go to add track - instrument track - and choose TTS. Then in input signal choose your RME midi channel ( omni it's good for start ), and you will hear your TTS sound when you play on controller. Rest is for you, you can record, or change sound in TTS.
I must be missing something.....Where would I hear this TTS sound coming from though? I use a MIDI keyboard controller (no sounds).
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Paw
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Re: Need MIDI Guidance in DAW Rebuild
2017/09/01 18:13:39
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Midi make no sound itself, but if you connect your midi output from controller to midi input in softsynth like TTS in Sonar, then you'll hear your track. This is the way that we all go, midi composers😊. What version Sonar you have?
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SonicExplorer
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Re: Need MIDI Guidance in DAW Rebuild
2017/09/01 18:57:28
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Oh, so TTS is just another synth? I've already got a synth that can load soundfonts just fine. That was never the problem, the issue was latency with that approach. Which is why I relied on the SBLive card. I'll try experimenting more with latency on the new DAW rebuild, just don't care for the idea of having to crank it down low enough to feel real-time as I suspect once I get around to running two audio dozen tracks and plugs that it will probably start tripping. I like to set the Sonar config once and leave it alone, really don't want to get into a scenario where I'm having to remember to readjust latency based on whether or not I'm trying to input Midi tracks or rather audio tracking/mixing. Those are the implications of what I foresee at the moment unless I'm misunderstanding things.... Sonic
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Cactus Music
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Re: Need MIDI Guidance in DAW Rebuild
2017/09/01 20:25:50
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You where experiencing latency most likely because your not setting things up properly and/or using the wrong drivers. RME is as good as it gets and you defiantly need to be using that as your DAW's audio interface and drivers. You may even need to remove the Sound Blaster if it is a PCI card because they are well know to steal the drivers for other devices cause more trouble that they are worth. Creative drivers ( in the past) are notoriously bad and do not run smooth with Sonar. I know first hand as I have a Creative Audigy II PCI card. That was why I ended up on this forum in 2004, I couldn't get anything to work in Sonar. Things improved for me immediately when I switched to a proper USB interface. I installed the Audigy in one of my DAW set ups once and ended up having to remove it because it conflicted. So make sure in preferences that the RME is your audio driver and clock source. Make sure your using ASIO drivers and best if they are up to date. Make sure your studio monitors are using the 1/2 output of the RME. You DO NOT want to use your computers output. There is no reason that you should not hear a VST instrument and with zero latency. There's a few other trouble spots. You PC is grossly outdated, you mention a re build?? Might be a good idea to post the complete system specs including RAM and which OS your running. And which version of Sonar are you running on that? Also your RME is firewire, there are well know issues with having the proper Texas Instrument chipset when using Firewire.
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JohanSebatianGremlin
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Re: Need MIDI Guidance in DAW Rebuild
2017/09/01 20:46:57
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The RME is as good as it gets so if you've got latency issues, its because of something else. If you're having latency issues I would suspect the soundblaster and use of soundfonts. Forget soundfonts. Use the midi input on the RME and drive soft synth and/or soft sampler plugins right in Sonar. I do this routinely with absolutely no latency issues. I'd also consider pulling the soundblaster out of the machine. Simpler the hardware/install the better when it comes to DAW's and latency.
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SonicExplorer
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Re: Need MIDI Guidance in DAW Rebuild
2017/09/01 21:38:46
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I'm using WDM/Kernel drivers, not ASIO (although frankly I can't recall why). The SBLive is not in the rebuild, yet. That's what I'm now trying to figure out. System is a dual core Pentium 3GHz, DDR2, XP. So while not exactly "modern"it has plenty of horsepower. More than enough for my needs. And yes, using TI chipset on the Firewire card, never had a problem with the card or the RME. Although I am probably going to try a PCIe card (also TI chipset) this time around.
I will experiment with the latency settings....
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Paw
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Re: Need MIDI Guidance in DAW Rebuild
2017/09/01 22:25:22
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Yes, you should use ASIO driver, RME have best drivers I know.
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Cactus Music
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Re: Need MIDI Guidance in DAW Rebuild
2017/09/01 23:02:10
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You still din't say what your RAM is and what version of Sonar. You are running a very outdated system and things have changed, Hard to trouble shoot with half the information. Start with switching to ASIO and trying a VST instrument and report back.
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