passenger57
Max Output Level: -82 dBFS
- Total Posts : 434
- Joined: 2005/02/05 03:20:03
- Status: offline
Need help setting up brickwall limiter
Hi Sonar friends! Had a pretty horrible audio spike in my studio last night and am trying to setup a brickwall limiter to save my poor ears. A guy at guitar center sold me a 266XL compressor/gate for this and I have the waves VST limiters as well. I just need a way for the audio signal to automatically cut off going to my monitors after it gets to a certain loud volume. Any tips on how to set this up? I'm at a loss. thanks so much!
post edited by passenger57 - 2010/10/30 16:47:58
SONAR 8.5.3 PE (x64) WINDOWS 7 Pro (64bit) Intel Core 2 Quad CPU Q9300 2.49 GHZ EMU 1616m 8 GB Of RAM ATI RADEON HD 4650 w/ dual monitors Vienna Ensemble Pro VST PLAY VST
|
nprime
Max Output Level: -51 dBFS
- Total Posts : 2423
- Joined: 2004/08/16 19:19:49
- Location: Vancouver
- Status: offline
Re:Need help setting up brickwall limiter
2010/10/30 19:38:56
(permalink)
I would return that and get the 166XL, which actually has a limiter function on it.
Listen Sonar 5PE Intel DP35DP, E6750, 3 GB, 80GB/320 GB Scope (6 DSP) w/A16 interface PadKontrol, Legacy Series MS20, EZDrummer.
|
...wicked
Max Output Level: -1.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 7360
- Joined: 2003/12/18 01:00:56
- Location: Seattle
- Status: offline
Re:Need help setting up brickwall limiter
2010/10/30 19:51:35
(permalink)
Fer realz. If it's inside your DAW, just set your limiter below the death rattle. Pretty straightforward. If it's hardware just turn it down! 
=========== The Fog People =========== Intel i7-4790 16GB RAM ASUS Z97 Roland OctaCapture Win10/64 SONAR Platinum 64-bit billions VSTs, some of which work
|
nprime
Max Output Level: -51 dBFS
- Total Posts : 2423
- Joined: 2004/08/16 19:19:49
- Location: Vancouver
- Status: offline
Re:Need help setting up brickwall limiter
2010/10/30 19:58:54
(permalink)
If the spike occurs after the convertors and he is using powered speakers...in the time the spike comes and goes there is no time to physically turn down the monitors anywhere near quickly enough.
Putting a limiter between the convertor outputs and the powered speakers will offer some level of protection, but I would not want to mix with something like that in the monitor chain all the time. If you set the limiter's threshold really low then it will be severly affecting your mix, if you have to set the threshold really high so that you mix sounds good then you will let the spike through up to that threshold level.
The device doesn't know what is a spike and what is a snare drum, it will limit them both the same way.
Listen Sonar 5PE Intel DP35DP, E6750, 3 GB, 80GB/320 GB Scope (6 DSP) w/A16 interface PadKontrol, Legacy Series MS20, EZDrummer.
|
CJaysMusic
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 30423
- Joined: 2006/10/28 01:51:41
- Location: Miami - Fort Lauderdale - Davie
- Status: offline
Re:Need help setting up brickwall limiter
2010/10/30 20:08:48
(permalink)
Need help setting up brickwall limiter Yea, those brinks add up in weight very fast! The 266 is not a brick wall limiter. Yes you can set your ratio so its over 10:1, but its no brick wall Also, there are no set settings for this. Each song will need different settings. so the best thing for you to do, is to learn all about limiting and then you will know what each song needs CJ
|
Rain
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 9736
- Joined: 2003/11/07 05:10:12
- Location: Las Vegas
- Status: offline
Re:Need help setting up brickwall limiter
2010/10/30 20:14:27
(permalink)
I'm not sure why exactly a limiter would be needed.
If you have powered monitors, just set them to a certain level so that the loudest possible signal you can send to it doesn't ruin your ears.
Mine are set so that even if the mixer level is pushed all the way up, I don't get unpleasant surprises. I usually work at much lower levels, but in case there's an unpredictable spike, I'm covered. I'd be worried that a limiter would actually mess with the sound.
TCB - Tea, Cats, Books...
|
Jose7822
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 10031
- Joined: 2005/11/07 18:59:54
- Location: United States
- Status: offline
Re:Need help setting up brickwall limiter
2010/10/30 20:19:35
(permalink)
Set up your speakers to the Bob Katz monitoring system and you won't need a Brickwall Limiter.
I actually have mine set to 78dB SPL, which works better for me than 86dB SPL as suggested by Mr. Katz. YMMV.
Take care!
Intel Q9400 2.66 GHz 8 GB of RAM @ 800 Mhz ATI Radeon HD 3650 Windows 7 Professional (SP1) x64 Cubase 6.03 x64 Sonar PE 8.5.3 x64 RME FireFace 400 Frontier Design Alpha Track Studio Logic VMK-188 Plus http://www.youtube.com/user/SonarHD
|
The Maillard Reaction
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 31918
- Joined: 2004/07/09 20:02:20
- Status: offline
Re:Need help setting up brickwall limiter
2010/10/30 20:42:12
(permalink)
I have seen the safety limiter approach in institutional and industrial settings... they are usually ugly sounding units.
I think for owner operators the most practical thing is to have easy availability to a kill switch or volume knob and to develop good habits about grabbing at it quickly and patience when you do not grab it quickly.
best regards,
mike
|
passenger57
Max Output Level: -82 dBFS
- Total Posts : 434
- Joined: 2005/02/05 03:20:03
- Status: offline
Re:Need help setting up brickwall limiter
2010/10/30 21:14:20
(permalink)
Lets put it this way. My film composing career almost ended last night when I got a HUGE and I mean HUGE white noise spike. I seriously thought I had some major hearing damage at that moment. The cause for the spike is a different subject, but all I can say is I absolutely need some sort of protection for that or any abnormality that could cause a deafening spike in the audio. I just put the Waves L2 on my master bus. But I need something from my mixer to my powered near field speakers that will cap the spikes. The 166XL looks like a good bet. Any other suggestions would be greatly appreciated =)
SONAR 8.5.3 PE (x64) WINDOWS 7 Pro (64bit) Intel Core 2 Quad CPU Q9300 2.49 GHZ EMU 1616m 8 GB Of RAM ATI RADEON HD 4650 w/ dual monitors Vienna Ensemble Pro VST PLAY VST
|
...wicked
Max Output Level: -1.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 7360
- Joined: 2003/12/18 01:00:56
- Location: Seattle
- Status: offline
Re:Need help setting up brickwall limiter
2010/10/30 21:24:00
(permalink)
Uh, but the cause of the spike kind of IS the subject. Are we talking power-related issues or plugging in hot units, or are we talking basic gain management? The latter can be solved with technique (well I reckon the former too but it's more mechanical).
Either way, since it sounds like the problem can occur outside the box, you'll want a hardware unit. Set it just below your clipping threshold and don't get wacky with the make up gain.
Still, it's treating the symptom and not the disease.
=========== The Fog People =========== Intel i7-4790 16GB RAM ASUS Z97 Roland OctaCapture Win10/64 SONAR Platinum 64-bit billions VSTs, some of which work
|
passenger57
Max Output Level: -82 dBFS
- Total Posts : 434
- Joined: 2005/02/05 03:20:03
- Status: offline
Re:Need help setting up brickwall limiter
2010/10/30 21:44:07
(permalink)
It's related to the East West PLAY convolution reverb. When its on it occasionally has these white noise spikes. I'm talking with East West tech support regarding the issue. So its the plugin causing it not hardware. Uh, but the cause of the spike kind of IS the subject. ...wicked
Uh, but the cause of the spike kind of IS the subject. Are we talking power-related issues or plugging in hot units, or are we talking basic gain management? The latter can be solved with technique (well I reckon the former too but it's more mechanical).
Either way, since it sounds like the problem can occur outside the box, you'll want a hardware unit. Set it just below your clipping threshold and don't get wacky with the make up gain.
Still, it's treating the symptom and not the disease.
SONAR 8.5.3 PE (x64) WINDOWS 7 Pro (64bit) Intel Core 2 Quad CPU Q9300 2.49 GHZ EMU 1616m 8 GB Of RAM ATI RADEON HD 4650 w/ dual monitors Vienna Ensemble Pro VST PLAY VST
|
passenger57
Max Output Level: -82 dBFS
- Total Posts : 434
- Joined: 2005/02/05 03:20:03
- Status: offline
Re:Need help setting up brickwall limiter
2010/10/30 23:33:07
(permalink)
If you have powered monitors, just set them to a certain level so that the loudest possible signal you can send to it doesn't ruin your ears.
I tried this - but strangely, even with the powered monitors set at 10%, they still loudly amplify the sound going into them regardless of how low they are set to. And I do have my master faders on my mackie mixer at arms length for these sort of things, but it would help to have extra protection. My setup chain is: Computer out to -> EMU1616m out to >- Mackie DFX-6 mixer (where I can manually control the volume to my comfort level) out to -> BX8a Powered Studio Monitors
post edited by passenger57 - 2010/10/30 23:36:12
SONAR 8.5.3 PE (x64) WINDOWS 7 Pro (64bit) Intel Core 2 Quad CPU Q9300 2.49 GHZ EMU 1616m 8 GB Of RAM ATI RADEON HD 4650 w/ dual monitors Vienna Ensemble Pro VST PLAY VST
|
Jose7822
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 10031
- Joined: 2005/11/07 18:59:54
- Location: United States
- Status: offline
Re:Need help setting up brickwall limiter
2010/10/31 03:19:26
(permalink)
Could you give me a formula to see if I can reproduce the problem from my end?
Intel Q9400 2.66 GHz 8 GB of RAM @ 800 Mhz ATI Radeon HD 3650 Windows 7 Professional (SP1) x64 Cubase 6.03 x64 Sonar PE 8.5.3 x64 RME FireFace 400 Frontier Design Alpha Track Studio Logic VMK-188 Plus http://www.youtube.com/user/SonarHD
|
Frank Haas
Max Output Level: -50.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 2490
- Joined: 2005/01/14 06:32:54
- Status: offline
Re:Need help setting up brickwall limiter
2010/10/31 03:45:18
(permalink)
I also have that white-noise-issue from time to time.. usually when I stress a project very hard then there's a high chance of getting that white noise.. and then, in my case, the project is lost.. sonar hangs and has to be restarted.
To the OP,.. I don't think that there is an elegant solution for that certain problem..
Consider that you probably mix at -10 or -20dB or even lower.. that white noise will jump at you at full 0dB..
if you use a hardware-limiter with treshold set to -10dB, then the issue gets better, but doubtly qualifiying as "good". (your "mix" is peaking at -10dB the average level of the whitenoise is 0dB!(rms))
You'd get better ear-protection-results when you mix louder within sonar (near to 0dB),.. then the jump to that occasional white noise is minimized.. set your speakers to 5% to compensate your overall loudness.. this is not an "audiophile" solution, but it could help.
Just saying the louder you mix the less you'll suffer from the white-noise-issue.
Frank
|
The Maillard Reaction
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 31918
- Joined: 2004/07/09 20:02:20
- Status: offline
Re:Need help setting up brickwall limiter
2010/10/31 09:09:35
(permalink)
passenger57
Lets put it this way. My film composing career almost ended last night when I got a HUGE and I mean HUGE white noise spike. I seriously thought I had some major hearing damage at that moment. The cause for the spike is a different subject, but all I can say is I absolutely need some sort of protection for that or any abnormality that could cause a deafening spike in the audio. I just put the Waves L2 on my master bus. But I need something from my mixer to my powered near field speakers that will cap the spikes. The 166XL looks like a good bet. Any other suggestions would be greatly appreciated =)
What some of us are gently trying to suggest... is that I would not let my signal pass through a 166XL... they just sound ugly... I know you are not planning to export through it but you'll be the person listening to it 24/7. If you are up for doing it then give it a try and see if it works for you. best regards, mike
|
gear crazy fool
Max Output Level: -90 dBFS
- Total Posts : 2
- Joined: 2010/11/19 08:12:53
- Status: offline
Re:Need help setting up brickwall limiter
2010/11/19 08:20:58
(permalink)
The Aphex Studio Decimator has been used with great success in studios for years. It not only protects your ears, but your monitors as well. I have some pricey monitors, as do many of my friends, and everyone uses hardware limiters. With the Aphex, I set mine three db below my maximum below my max listening level, which has proven time and again a bulletproof solution. There are many other limiters that will work with the same approach.
Cheers!
|
gear crazy fool
Max Output Level: -90 dBFS
- Total Posts : 2
- Joined: 2010/11/19 08:12:53
- Status: offline
Re:Need help setting up brickwall limiter
2010/11/19 08:27:50
(permalink)
I meant Studio Dominator, not Studio Decimator. OOOoops...Too much cold medicine. I'm home sick today, but my sentiments remain. You can get a Dominator II on ebay foe $300-$400--much better choice overall.
|
lorneyb2
Max Output Level: -58.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 1667
- Joined: 2007/04/26 04:02:10
- Location: Saskatchewan, Canada
- Status: offline
Re:Need help setting up brickwall limiter
2010/11/19 14:45:17
(permalink)
I'm not sure if what you are describing is what I am thinking about that occurs in EW. If you have playback running and you load an instrument in EW you can get the echoing gun shots, for a lack of a better way to describe them. After a couple times of this occurring and realizing the cause I just developed more patience and stop playback before loading another instrument. Ear are just to important to risk damage for lack of patience.
That is the only way I have ever had it occur with EW. I have seen it occur with other plugins that have a built in reverb.
|
Guitarman1
Max Output Level: -83 dBFS
- Total Posts : 380
- Joined: 2006/04/16 22:59:49
- Status: offline
Re:Need help setting up brickwall limiter
2010/11/19 18:24:33
(permalink)
All of the above is very good advice, one other thing... don't trust what a guitar center rep says... I have found that to be the most valuable tool. I am sure there are some knowledgeable ones, but of the 2 different I have gone to, none.
|