Helpful ReplyNeed help with EWQLSO & Play

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Bristol_Jonesey
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2012/04/09 16:04:35 (permalink)

Need help with EWQLSO & Play

I recently installed Platinum plus (another saga that I won't go into now), and during my forays into the Soundsonline forum, I found a link to a couple of videos describing how to use/modify Sonars drum maps for mapping key switched articulation.

Setting one up is easy enough if you're used to Drum Maps, but I'm having trouble adding a second instrument to the same Play Vsti and being able to manipulate them separately in the PRV.

Scenario is, one instance of Play, 2 instruments loaded (18V & VCS)
I then created 2 drum maps for each artic, along with 2 other Midi tracks (output to the Vsti) for note entering purposes.

This works up to a point, but what I'm getting is that both of the drum maps & Duplicate are overlapping in their key ranges.

I've tried setting each artic (drum Map and Output track) to a different Midi Channel, and basically checked all of the IO settings but these overlaps are still happening.

Now, I'm no Midi genius and I feel there's a step somewhere I'm missing.

The Play Vsti doesn't seem to have the facility to change Midi Channel for a given instrument/articulation, but again, I'm totally new to Play so maybe something obvious is eluding me.

Can anyone offer any insight into what I'm doing wrong?

Thanks.

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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re:Need help with EWQLSO & Play 2012/04/13 05:14:00 (permalink)
Well, after 49 views and not a single response, I'm glad to say I got it figured out eventually.

If anyone would like to know how I did it, I'll post it up.

I'd normally do this and append the word *SOLVED* to the thread title, but the solution is a bit convoluted, although I was wrong in my assumption about the Play engine - you CAN change Midi channel.

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Combo
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Re:Need help with EWQLSO & Play 2012/04/15 01:01:19 (permalink)
Bristol_Jonesey


Well, after 49 views and not a single response, I'm glad to say I got it figured out eventually.

If anyone would like to know how I did it, I'll post it up.

I'd normally do this and append the word *SOLVED* to the thread title, but the solution is a bit convoluted, although I was wrong in my assumption about the Play engine - you CAN change Midi channel.

Just seen this a couple of minutes ago and didn't know the answer anyway.  Anyway as a bit of a EWQLSO noob yes thanks I would much appreciate seeing the solution you came up with for reference.  In truth I haven't even yet checked out the relevant Soundsonline thread as I wasn't aware drum maps could do this  -  but I'm sure I'll run into snags if I try it so having the benefit of your efforts would be great.     Cheers.
 
 

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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re:Need help with EWQLSO & Play 2012/04/15 05:33:03 (permalink)
http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.aspx?m=1965558

There are a couple of videos here which outline the process.

I'll write something up over the next day or 2 and post it up on here.

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Combo
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Re:Need help with EWQLSO & Play 2012/04/16 14:27:51 (permalink)
Bristol_Jonesey


http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.aspx?m=1965558

There are a couple of videos here which outline the process.

I'll write something up over the next day or 2 and post it up on here.


Ta very much - appreciated.

SONAR Platinum rolling updates:  Intel i7 2600k on Gigabyte P67A UD 7: 16GB RAM:  W7 x64 Home Premium.
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Philip
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Re:Need help with EWQLSO & Play 2012/04/16 18:30:30 (permalink)
EWQL Platinum and Play are both greedy creatures for me ... even in 64-bit Sonar with large SSD drives and the I7 multi-core.

Sorry I missed your post. 

Switching articulations in play is difficult and CPU consuming.  That is why they designed 'optimal' key-triggers for complex instrument articulations in EWQLSO's 'compound-master' instruments (e.g., Viola, Violin, Trump, Bass, Cello, etc.). 

You know ... the blue keys for triggering articulations in 'compound instruments' (forgive my grammar)

MIDI channel switching can be done within Sonar's 'event thingy' ... but that is 'uninspiring' for my workflow.  I get depressed thinking about all that coniving.  And to this day, I've only heard one composer succeed (with one song) doing event switching.

In sum:

1) Please please consider to just use the blue key-triggers and multiple instances of Play. 

2) If more than 4 instances of compound instruments in Play ... I myself start 24-bit bouncing of orchestral performances ... while archiving their MIDI's.  That speeds up Sonar load times, Play launches, etc. 

Unfortunately, freezing EWQL tracks is not fail-safe as the digital waves oft end up being chopped away in places ... its best (IMHO) to export-bounce them (to the window's desktop) ... preferably as dry as possible ... then drag them back into Sonar to apply fx's.

3) Platinum is for the truly meticulous and faithful ... my ears could never appreciate the 'close' mics, except for solo instruments ... and then a live violinist (like Scotty) ... would be my go-to performer. 

But now that you indeed have Platinum, I'd think you have a great advantage:  You can now create performances that are quite dry!
 
Sonar reverbs, comps, delays, EQs, etc. may then be used for those recordings in lieu of EWQL's fx's ... and save a lot of CPU.

Hope that helps my friend!  Thanks for your excellent thread
post edited by Philip - 2012/04/16 18:33:17

Philip  
(Isa 5:12 And the harp, and the viol, the tabret, and pipe, and wine, are in their feasts: but they regard not the work of the LORD)

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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re:Need help with EWQLSO & Play 2012/04/17 09:25:37 (permalink)
Thanks for that Philip.

I have now almost completed building my "One Template to Rule Them All", at least for EWQLSO.

I have created about 30 drum maps, loaded up into 5 instances of Play, all of the Master KS files (about 45-50 instruments) and with all articulations loaded and ready to go, my RAM usage is at about 10%

I am so glad I persuaded my self to opt for a massive amount of RAM in my new system

I will post up my methodology for the benefit of Combo and any others interested in following this through. It blew my tiny mind at first, but I was determined to get it to work and so far my determination has paid off.

Talk  about time consuming!!!! It's taken me about 5 nights and most of last weekend, thankfully this will only ever have to be done once!!

CbB, Platinum, 64 bit throughout
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re:Need help with EWQLSO & Play 2012/04/17 15:51:58 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby ohgrant 2015/09/14 16:56:53
Ok, here goes, I’ll describe it step by step which hopefully you can follow.

1.       Insert an instance of Play. You want MIDI Source activated, along with First Synth Audio Output
2.       From the Player view, click Settings. Under “Other” you need to make sure that “Midi Channel Assignment” is set to “Automatic Increment”
 
3.       From the Play gui, make sure you’re in Browser (not Player) and load an instrument. Pick one that contains a Master Keyswitch file. For this exercise I used 11Violins (11V KS)
 
4.       Switch back to Player and make a note of how many articulations are listen in the central section.  11 Violins has 29 Articulations, but the bottom one in the list – Release Trails – cannot be mapped as an artic as isn’t mapped to a note number. So  the number of artics we’ll be mapping is 28
 
5.       Now, go back to Sonar. Ignore the audio track for now. First thing to do is to make a clone of the Midi track.
 
6.       It’s also probably a good idea at this stage to rename the instance of Play in the Synth rack. Just call it strings for now.
 
7.       Name one of these to something like \\\\ EW 11v KS \\\\ and name the other one Strings – 11 violins. It doesn’t really matter what you call them, as long as you can distinguish between the 2 types (which will eventually end  up as being 1 for Keyswitches and one for Midi notes & CC’s)
 
 
8.       From your designated KS track, click on the Output field and select Drum Map manager
9.       At the top of the page, select New
 
10.   Under “notes” in the central section, hit New 28 times. The 28 is the number of artics we’re going to map as outlined above. 
 
11.   Now, when you’ve done that, scroll back up to the top of the list which should be note 0(C0). It doesn’t really matter if it says anything different, but it should be note 0.
 
12.   Now here’s a potentially tricky bit. We need to remap both the In Note & the Out Note fields. And to make matters worse, Sonar & EW mappings are different by 2 octaves. What Sonar say is C2 (Note 24) EW says is C0 (Note 24) so you have to work out what note ranges in Sonar need to be mapped. I actually prepared a very simple spreadsheet in Excel which does this for me – all I have to do is read off the note as defined by EW and look at the relevant entry under Sonar. The last articulation in the EW Player reads “D#2 – Qleg Sord”. My spreadsheet tells me that D#2 in EW is note 51 in Sonar.
13.   Double click the In Note and type in 51. The note designation will turn to Eb4. Do the same for the Out Note field.
 
14.   Now move down to the next pair of In & Out note fields and type 50. Repeat this until you get to the end of the list. You should arrive at note #24 (C2 Sonar – C0 EW)  ** See post #10 below
 
15.   Go back to the top of the list. Under Name, double click and enter a new description. Again, this should be something that will make sense once you’re viewing it in the PRV. I used “11V Ks – Qleg Sord”. Repeat this for all the artics.
 
16.   Now we need to adjust the “Channel” Parameter. Hold down Ctrl + Shift and select the top entry. Scroll down to the bottom, keep ctrl + shift held and select the bottom entry. The entire list should now be selected. 
 
17.   Keeping ctrl + shift held, select the channel from the drop down box which corresponds to the Channel number in the Play gui (top left, underneath Midi Port)
 
18.   Now do a ctrl + shift + select of all (28) entries under “Out Port”. Select the instance of the Play vsti you’re working with (Strings)
19.   Now click ok and you’re finished with the drum map.
 
20.   Back in Sonar land, on your Ks Midi track, click the Output field again and point the output to the drum map you just created. This will normally be the last one in the list
 
21.   Now switch to your cloned Midi track. Under the Channel field, select the Midi Channel we’ve just set on the Drum map.
 
22.   Select both Midi tracks and hit Alt + 3 to go into the prv. You’ll need to drag down the top part of the screen to view the drum map. Make sure that under “view” you’ve got “Show/Hide Track Pane” selected
 
23.   Now, hopefully, if you click any of the notes/artics in the Drum Map, you’ll see he corresponding articulation being selected on the blue keys in Play
 
24.   Clicking on the “regular” keys in the “normal” prv should now provide you with sound
 
All of this sounds extremely convoluted, but it’s much quicker to do in practice than it is to describe it.
Now, you won’t be content with just 11 Violins as you only source of strings, so you need to add more instruments.

1.       Back in the Play Browser, select another instrument and loads it’s Master Keyswitch file.
2.       Click “Add” to add it to Play
 
3.       The Midi channel should automatically increment
 
4.       Now it’s a question of going back to step 4 above, making a note of the number of articulations.
 
5.       Clone both of your existing Midi channels, change their header description in the same way as our first one. You might also want at this stage to consider putting similar tracks into Folders – one for your keyswitches and one for your Midi notes.
 
6.       Follow the above steps again but this time you every time you have to enter or change a Midi channel, use the newly incremented number indicated in the Play gui
 
7.       Now you can go back to the prv and under tracks > Pick tracks – select all 4 Mid tracks you’ve generated.
 
8.       Remember to select, from the Track Pane, in Pairs – in order to work on a single instrument – 1 for the Keyswitches and one for the Notes/Controllers
 
You can repeat all of the above for as many instruments as you want to load into 1 instance of Play, subject to a maximum of 16 (The Midi Channel limit)
Now, it’s probably a good idea as you go along to also start cloning your audio tracks for each instrument you add. Yep, that now makes 3 tracks for each instrument. Cumbersome I know, but judicious use of the Track Manager can really help here. You certainly don’t want to see any of the Midi tracks in console view, so hide them there, and there’s no real benefit for being able to see the Keyswitch tracks in Track view, so hide them there.
On your audio tracks, increment the Input parameter for each instrument you add. This makes auditioning the different instruments really easy. Name them and put them in folders.
Once you’ve repeated this for all the strings (Section & solo), Brass & Woods you’ll probably end up with a fair number of tracks.
Percussion is slightly different in that no Keyswitches are provided, instead, each instrument is laid out chromatically on the keyboard
I’ve set up different folders, one for “Metals”, one for “Woods” etc. All you need to do here is increment each Midi channel as you load them. Currently I have 2 instances of play set up for percussion, but I’ve not finished with this yet, so a 3rd will be added in due course.
The Midi limit of 16 channels can be a bit of a problem here, as Metals, Drums & CymBong all contain over 16 instruments, so if you want to load all of them, they’ll need to be split across 2 (or more) Play instances.
 
I hope this helps, I really do. At least you only have to do this once! Save it as a template. You can of course set it up so that initially, your synths are disconnected to speed up loading times, also, during composition, you can easily unload individual artics from the Play gui, thus releasing them from memory.

This setup is currently eating up 7GB of RAM.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
post edited by Bristol_Jonesey - 2012/04/18 10:05:22

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Combo
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Re:Need help with EWQLSO & Play 2012/04/17 21:19:38 (permalink)
Bristol_Jonesey


Ok, here goes, I’ll describe it step by step which hopefully you can follow.
.......
This setup is currently eating up 7GB of RAM.
Many thanks for taking the time and effort to post this for us other users.   I'm going to copy and paste it for reference (not currently doing anything in EWQLSO but will be at some point soon).


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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re:Need help with EWQLSO & Play 2012/04/18 08:30:26 (permalink)
Amendment:
14.Now move down to the next pair of In & Out note fields and type 50. Repeat this until you get to the end of the list. You should arrive at note #24 (C2 Sonar – C0 EW)


Several low pitched instruments (Tuba/Basses etc) map their keyswitches ABOVE the note range of the instrument so you will not end on note #24 for these.

An even smaller number of instruments (Cellos is one I believe) have a split keyswitch whereby some oft he artics are mapped below the low end and the remaining artics above the high end

Just something to bear in mind

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PilotGav
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Re:Need help with EWQLSO & Play 2015/08/04 18:58:09 (permalink)
Any chance you want to package up your templates, maps, etc. and send them out in return for a donation?
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DRanck
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Re:Need help with EWQLSO & Play 2015/08/27 13:21:48 (permalink)
I know this is an old thread but just a note for anyone reading this. EW Play works better with multiple instances if you have a 64 bit system. My default orchestral template has about 18 instances of Play. That's one for each section plus choir and misc.

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rlbates13
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Re:Need help with EWQLSO & Play 2015/09/07 20:46:28 (permalink)
I'm beginning to set up my first major orchestral template and I've been searching forums quite a bit on whether or not to use key switching.   I'm still not sure which way I'll go....to use key switches or set up separate tracks for each articulation I plan to use.  But I can say.... I just followed Bristol's instructions to set up drum maps for key switches and it works beautifully.  It is a lot of work... and will be a lot of work for the many key switched instruments I may end up with, but if it works like I hope it works, it will be worth the effort.   So I just wanted to comment and say thanks Jonesey!!!
 
Now, given that this is an older thread and given that I'm new to this type of thing, if there have been better, more recent developments in Sonar that I'm not aware of that will do the job better, please let me know.
Thanks.
Roger
 

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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re:Need help with EWQLSO & Play 2015/09/11 10:04:05 (permalink)
Hi Roger.
 
I'm still using exactly the same system as in my post from 3 years ago.
 
It just works......
 
Thanks for your comments

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