Ambient
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Need help with volume envelopes...
I have never used one before, but plan to for a project that I am about to finish tracking. Where does a volume envelope fall in the signal chain? Logically, I would think it would be before any effects in the FX bin. Maybe it would make more sense if I describe what I would like to do:
In a few songs, there are certain parts where the kick drum and snare need to come down or be turned up. I have a compressor, gate, and reverb dialed in, so I do not want the envelope affecting the signal going in those effects. Is there any way to have the envelope affect the processed signal after the effects?
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Kev999
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Re:Need help with volume envelopes...
2012/08/31 18:07:18
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Ambient
Where does a volume envelope fall in the signal chain?
As far as I know, a track envelope is not an additional part of the signal chain. Therefore a volume envelope controls volume at the same stage as the volume fader. A clip envelope is separate though. It comes after clip fades and before the clip effects bin. Check out the signal flow diagram in the Sonar PDF manual.
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bitflipper
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Re:Need help with volume envelopes...
2012/08/31 18:49:45
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Volume envelopes are at the end of the track's signal chain, the last thing that happens before being routed to a bus. The exception would be an aux send with the "Pre" option selected, in which case the signal to that send would bypass volume automation.
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The Band19 
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Re:Need help with volume envelopes...
2012/08/31 19:08:21
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I didn't use them when I started, but now I can't imagine trying to mix without them. Just turn on the "WRITE" button on the track or bus and then ride the fader. Then you can go in and "see" the envelope you created? and you can edit it. Add nodes, move nodes, etc... Once you get your problem with envelopes "licked?" Life will never be the same.
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Guitarhacker
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Re:Need help with volume envelopes...
2012/09/01 08:20:45
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I didn't think they were in the signal path at all... instead simply being a controller for the volume fader which is already in the signal path. I use them extensively. Not a single project is lacking them on almost every track. I never use the WRITE AUTOMATION to move the faders. Instead, I add them to the track manually, and make all my edits manually. To me, that is so much cleaner looking in the track and surgically precise. This picture below shows what my typical projects look like. The yellow volume envelopes are all manually inserted and the nodes are manually added. I zoom in to drop them surgically into the tracks and then zoom back out again to edit them with levels.  I also find them to be quite handy for quick fades at the ends of the tracks..... where I may not really want a master fade.... I can for example, let the acoustic fade slower then everything else or like in the last song I posted, let the fiddle pay on for several seconds by itself after everything else was done and out.  .
My website & music: www.herbhartley.com MC4/5/6/X1e.c, on a Custom DAW Focusrite Firewire Saffire Interface BMI/NSAI "Just as the blade chooses the warrior, so too, the song chooses the writer "
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ohgrant
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Re:Need help with volume envelopes...
2012/09/01 12:37:35
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The Band19
I didn't use them when I started, but now I can't imagine trying to mix without them. Just turn on the "WRITE" button on the track or bus and then ride the fader. Then you can go in and "see" the envelope you created? and you can edit it. Add nodes, move nodes, etc... Once you get your problem with envelopes "licked?" Life will never be the same.
Thanks for this brother, up until now my envelopes always involved the scissors and a much longer process.
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Ambient
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Re:Need help with volume envelopes...
2012/09/02 11:56:19
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Thanks for the responses everyone! Like "theband19" said, life will never be the same! haha
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Ambient
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Re:Need help with volume envelopes...
2012/09/02 12:25:23
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If I hit the "write" button, how do i record the automation? Do I just hit play and adjust my faders, or do I have to hit record? If I hit record, does it automatically know to record an automation and not from the input that is assigned to that track?
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mattplaysguitar
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Re:Need help with volume envelopes...
2012/09/02 17:54:35
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☄ Helpful
By default, once you hit the 'write' button on a track, if you ever move the fading during playback or recording, it records the new movements. I use a combination of recorded and hand drawn. Guitarhacker has some images of all manually made envelopes which as he said, keeps things tidy. I do things manually like this sometimes. But most of the time I prefer to write because I feel it sounds more natural and dynamic. Everything gets messy with the automation write nodes, but if it's wrong, I just re-record it. I use a Korg NanoKontrol for my write stuff. This this is SUPER cheap. I suggest everything gets one. Great value. http://www.korg.com/nanoseries2 Much better than a mouse. The thing I like about it is you can 'feel' the music. Doing things manually takes trial and error to get it right. With a fader, a couple of runs through to get a 'feel' for the response and you can make the music MOVE. But as always, it depends on the individual. If doing it manually works for you, then it works for you. It's as simple as that. There is no right way, only different ways for different people. But I highly suggest trying it out.
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Ambient
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Re:Need help with volume envelopes...
2012/09/02 19:37:40
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Thanks for clearing that up! So what other things can be controled via automation?
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Guitarhacker
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Re:Need help with volume envelopes...
2012/09/02 21:52:02
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volume...panning..... midi parameters..... synths.... all can be controlled by envelopes. I use the manual edits. I often need to switch from one instrument to another as I have done in the last song I worked on.... http://www.soundclick.com...34&songID=11843061 Using my sharp edit points...or as I like to say ...surgical edits, it still sounds natural and I can get them precisely where I want..... I even use that method to edit out clicks and bad notes. You can not tell where it's done like that if it's done right.
My website & music: www.herbhartley.com MC4/5/6/X1e.c, on a Custom DAW Focusrite Firewire Saffire Interface BMI/NSAI "Just as the blade chooses the warrior, so too, the song chooses the writer "
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bitflipper
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Re:Need help with volume envelopes...
2012/09/03 00:10:51
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I didn't think they were in the signal path at all... instead simply being a controller for the volume fader which is already in the signal path. You are technically correct, Herb. The automation controls the fader. Of course, neither the automation envelope nor the "fader" are real things at all, just a stage in the computation chain. Ambient, the number of things you can automate is staggering. Almost every knob and slider on every plugin and soft synth can be automated. So let your imagination run wild.
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mattplaysguitar
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Re:Need help with volume envelopes...
2012/09/03 20:15:47
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But not the attack and release times on the X1 bundled Virtual Strings synth :( makes realistic orchestration much more difficult.
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bitflipper
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Re:Need help with volume envelopes...
2012/09/04 00:27:11
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That sucks. You should at least be able to automate attack time on strings. Jeesh, what were they thinking?
But I suppose you could throw on the Transient Shaper and automate that.
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mattplaysguitar
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Re:Need help with volume envelopes...
2012/09/04 01:59:17
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Best workaround I've got is to just use multiple instances with each having different settings. Annoying, but workable. Might even be able to play with using inverse grouping on the volume and use that to shift between the short attack and long attack settings... Hmm, that could just work nicely, just as long as the non-linearality of it doesn't sound weird.
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bitflipper
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Re:Need help with volume envelopes...
2012/09/04 11:15:48
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I do the same thing. For rock 'n pop string beds I typically have "long strings" and "short strings" busses and use volume automation to bring one up and the other down according to the needs of each passage.
All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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